Meeting witness

[dfl]

Hi

Im trying to help someone at a disciplinary appeal but being told as its not my scheduled shift i wont be paid for it, or not even hours back or shift changed, is this right or against policy to be stating this as surely if the employee needs a rep (even a usdaw one) they would need to be on shift and could be brought in ?

[NightAndDay]

As you are required to attend, you legally have to be paid, if they try pull a fast one, get USDAW involved and remind the union of Employment law.

[BlueToon]

If you are going in as a colleague rep (not a union rep), then you have exactly the same rights as a union rep. This includes to prepare for the meeting, attend the meeting etc.  Included in this is the right to be paid.

[lucgeo]

Look under citizens advice...
Who can accompany you to a disciplinary meeting.the meeting should be arranged for your shift, otherwise you come in and get paid for your time...including the travel time to and from your home if it is a fair distance.

[dfl]

@lucgeo hi this is in relation to the disciplinary appeal youve replied to before, im being told that as its not my shift it wont be paid if i go in, think policy does said paid to help prepare for it but doesnt say anything about for the whole meeting, maybe theyre trying to break up the continuity for the employee having the same companion from start to finish

[oldfashionedplayer]

As others have said, it seems to follow the same rights as a disciplinary hearing which is you are able to take in a union representative / colleague and if they aren't available can be re-scheduled, says reps are entitled to have the time paid etc, so should be the same rights for the colleague of expected to come in to give evidence in a meeting etc, I'd have the colleague request a day when your both in and raise it with colleague help too to be honest, get their bit of info on it as they'll likely be starting to look into it more to avoid any potential legal issues with the way you've described the stuff 

[dfl]

@oldfashionedplayer im the one going in with the employee but being told i wouldnt be paid as not on a scheduled shift, i think thats completely wrong. What would you mean by colleague help may look into legal issues ?

[londoner83]

If i was you, i would raise a colleague help ticket describing the problem you are having and ask their advice.

In case you are unaware Colleague Help have trained personnel people responding to queries who will be fully aware of any legal implications from any actions instore.

In simple terms, if the colleague you are representing left the business and then claimed constructive dismissal as a result of all of this - would a court find it acceptable that they weren't allowed their chosen representation at the appeal hearing?

Personally feel there advice will be either to pay you to attend the meeting or to reschedule it to a time you are both contracted to be in work.

[dfl]

@londoner83 true, thanks for the comment

[oldfashionedplayer]

Aye as londoner said in relation to a colleague not allowed their chosen representative / support etc and raising a claim they'd want to try and avoid that sort of situation, so by going through colleague help with the asking for clarification and explaining everything, your likely to be told you'll be paid and they'll be told that too in their communications and Probably  the way it's dealt with passed on further or looked at perhaps.

[lucgeo]

If you are the chosen representative and you have been supporting this colleague throughout the disciplinary stage and appeal, then the meeting should be arranged for when you are on a shift...meetings are arranged by mutual agreement not by dictating!

If the colleague was a union member, then they would be entitled to have their chosen representative,or another trained union representative but only if it was that their chosen rep was absent or on holiday. If there was no other reps available then they could have a rep from another store attend.

Your colleague should request the meeting be rescheduled for when you can attend, the same rights should be afforded to them as to a union member.

If they are still denied representation by you, then once the meeting started, and notes being made, they ask for an adjournment as they have been denied their right to their chosen representative to attend and support them! Don't allow them to be fobbed off with getting any other colleague to sit in instead, as "they're just there to witness the proceedings" NO!

Make sure all notes are signed and the squiggles underneath so nothing extra can be added.

[dfl]

Meeting is now going ahead, all sorted in regard to witnessing, any other advice welcomed about how to conduct, ie me doing a lot of questioning of appeals manager instead of other way round, all of course relative to the issue at hand, ie discriminating, training, etc.

Thanks all for advice so far

[lucgeo]

Make your notes and bullet points beforehand.

Ask for 15 mins before meeting to run through and discuss with your colleague for any points you both want to raise, this should be done in a private room, not the rest room with ear wigging colleagues!

Whereas you may ask questions, you cannot answer questions posed to the colleague, unless the colleague has explicitly expressed you answer for them...but they then can't answer any questions posed.

Be polite and concise, they're not necessarily the enemy, but don't allow yourself to be spoken down to or spoken over...if at any time you feel that the meeting is getting out of hand, or you wish to clarify a point with the colleague, you may ask for an adjournment...they leave the room not you and your colleague to discuss.

You may need to remind the manager that you are there as the chosen representative, with the same standing and respect offered as an official USDAW rep. They treat you as of equal standing to themselves.

Note taker does not make a comment...object if they do and ask for your objections be noted in the minutes if it continues.

If stated you are not allowed to speak but just there to take notes and remain mute is wrong! Politely remind them you are there as the colleagues chosen representative with the same rights as a union representative.

[lucgeo]

You can start off with the ambiguity of the rules, the handbook and the lack of specific details and training regarding the issue of "idling" which is the complaint made against the driver in the initial conversation with the instructor.
It is not something that has ever been covered or mentioned previously to the driver, hence the reason for the appeal, as it is still unclear to the colleague as to what they were disciplined for, as there was no mention of "idling" in the discipline.

The colleague feels that they have been singled out as an example to others, to make them aware of the process. The later posted notices would appear to support this.
The section manager himself (in the previous notes) suggests that it is unclear as to the rules the driver had allegedly broken?

The colleague feels that a 1-2-1 conversation with the section manager would have been sufficient in bringing the matter to his attention and scheduling a re-training session.
The colleague feels the warning was unjustified in this instance and wishes to appeal on the grounds already stated.

[dfl]

Completed meeting, idling set aside as manager seemed to accept this happens, however does still consider that in managers view and previous managers who were involved in this process that the van was in their opinion unattended, anyone know what else i can do for the employee, re is acas, e.t. route worth it, the employee does want to as has not had disciplinary in all years working for tesco and still feels its unjust.

[lucgeo]

I think you just need to draw a line under this.

Yes it's unfair, but you've gone through the appeals process and though the initial accusation of idling has been dropped (probably because there is no clear written policy on it) the unattended element has taken precedence for which he's been disciplined.

These warnings drop off after a set period of time, and can only be referred to after that expiry date if it is for the same misdemeanour, it can't be used for escalation for a non related disciplinary matter!

Reading between the lines here, it looks like the orders been given higher up to make it common knowledge that it is a disciplinary matter and the colleague has been used as the fall guy!

The colleague could write a letter to put into his file that he accepts the appeal decision "under protest" but this would be pushing the boundaries of "under protest" relatability and may not be accepted?

@dfl...you've done a brilliant service for your colleague, have you considered becoming a union rep yourself? The training would help, you'd have back up and protection and a greater knowledge of workers rights.

It's not for everyone, but if you use it for your own benefit in helping others, while ignoring the commercial aspect side its now become, it can be very interesting and worthwhile.

[dfl]

@lucgeo, it has been hard work but this forum and the help from many others on here including yourself has been amazing, invaluable and quite frankly priceless, couldnt likely have got anywhere near this far without you all

[lackofinterest]

@dfl. in my honest opinion the colleague has done nothing wrong. my advice to him would be to look elsewhere for a better employee who value their staff a bit more.personaly i would find out who the jobsworth who reported him is and make sure he would think twice next time about being a cnut to try to get employees sacked!!

[dfl]

@lackofinterest I know who the jobsworth is and so does the employee

[lackofinterest]

and is he happy with the anxiety he's caused? of course he is cos he's a jobsworth and in my opinion they are worthless s*** who think they're important. he/she needs to be reminded that what he has done was a big mistake!

[dfl]

@lackofinterest, at all 3 meetings that were held in regard to this it was raised about his/her aggressive attitude to the employee, and no action that I've seen anyway has been forthcoming, now they would say it could be raised with formal grievance, to my knowledge that isnt necessary as it only needs notification through "any reasonable means" which in my view bringing it up at 3 meetings already qualifies as being sufficient

[lucgeo]

@dfl
unless the colleague submits a written grievance against this person, they won't do anything.
It's out of the store managers control, as the person is not employed by the store, it would have to be placed to this person's departmental management for investigation.

Although the aggression was noted, they won't take it any further themselves, it can't be expected to give them the bullets to fire on another's behalf.

Any complaint of aggressive behaviour will need to be brought by the person themselves. As they have the right to complain, so the aggressor has the right to defend, so a third party couldn't intervene on hearsay.

If you do decide to become a rep, you'll often get colleagues coming to you to complain about another colleagues behaviour, but they "don't want to cause any trouble" in that they expect you to make the complaint on their behalf.
Or they'll start a complaint, then tell you the next day they'll "let it go this time"

Any grievance must be made by the person, and done so off their own back, they must never be encouraged or persuaded by another to place a grievance.

[dfl]

@lucgeo i agree, i wasnt in any way suggesting that i would raise it, my view on that is exactly the same as the process we have just went through, i wouldnt have touched any of it if the employee hadnt wanted it and specifically asked for it.

I just presumed that the employee mentioning it themselves at each meeting should have raised some eyebrows.

[lucgeo]

@dfl
No I know you weren't mate 

I'm just going into as great amount of detail, concerning each scenario, as I can for future reference to anyone to note before this site closes.

Rules will change...new policies will come up...the partnership agreement will be eroded as much as they can get away with, what they've managed to get away with so far shows how little bite the agreement now has!

A lot of apathy from colleagues, little in the way of training and support for reps, USDAW more interested in spending money on award ceremonies for the chosen few in the clique and selling insurance...all working office hours Monday-Friday!


Many colleagues have never heard of the partnership agreement, or that policies for people are available to view online. They don't realise that the agreement was drawn up to protect their rights in exchange for giving up their vote to strike!

[dfl]

@lucgeo wish there was a way to archive or take over the site, a friend of mines actually has an i.t. Company and also the know how to do it, but alas wouldnt be of interest to him sadly, i do know about the partnership agreement and indeed policies for our people. But in this case anyway the definition as you already know of what unattended means still got twisted to suit the company agenda. I wont be pushing this one any further unless the employee insists as they still have rights to acas and tribunal, me helping tho would be much harder tho mainly due to this wonderful site and the people within it