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Am I supposed to be off for 12 weeks? conflicting info :(

Started by Freebird123, 29-03-20, 03:09PM

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notsofunny

Quote from: oldfashionedplayer on 12-06-20, 04:36PM
There's government tweets that do say supermarkets can go through furlough, all business types are able to be furloughed, was actually shown on Martin Lewis with mp tweets too, just tesco refuse to do it, tried raising it with them before and they said it was false media that all companies could do it.. They gave the excuse that since they are a vital employer and hiring in the crisis rather than shutting down they were unable to do furlough, later said that if they went through furlough we'd only be paid 80% of contractual wage and we were getting a better deal than what the government was offering (also false since it goes off yearly average / February month wage as a forefront).

So really not sure morris where you get your information but it is however incorrect.



Can you show us Government advice to what you are saying ,, Not just about some web site or tweets , Facts please

notsofunny

Quote from: Morris999 on 12-06-20, 02:09PM
Hi, as Tesco are considered an essential service along with all the other supermarkets, they are unable to use/take advantage of the government’s furloughed service.
So Tesco are paying the self-isolating colleague’s out of its own money, not the government’s!
So the government is not contributing to your partners pay in anyway shape or form, hence having to take 2 weeks holiday in the 12 week period.
If you are really not happy about having to use the 2 weeks holiday for upto 12 weeks off paid, then I’m sure a nice letter/phone call to the store manager will solve the issue, ie he/she will take back the 12 weeks paid and process it all as unpaid.

As for going forward again Tesco does not have to top up colleagues wages if they have run out of company/SSP however are doing so, and while we all realise it’s not the colleagues fault in anyway shape or form, there has to be some compromise along the way.
It all comes back to supermarkets being classed as essential business/service  and therefore cannot take advantage of the furlough service.
Now if they could I’m sure tesco would do so, but colleagues would only have got 80% of wages!

Now your wife’s job/role is not at risk due to her health or because of COVID. So when the government decides it safe for her to return she will be able too, but probably on some sort of support plan.

very well said  :thumbup: :thumbup: Would go futher and say that if anyone is unhappy with the way they are being paid they can just donate the money they are getting above SSP to charity ,,
I personally  think that Tesco have been great in paying over 30,000 staff full wage over these last 3 months ,  I read that at the start 52 thousand went sick during the first 3 weeks ,

Morris999

@ sunshine,
I’ve nothing to be ashamed of whatsoever.
You asked a question, I answered it.
Just because you may have not liked the answer doesn’t mean it was rude or unpleasant.
As for what I’m doing on here, I’ve just as much right as the next person, as long as I follow the sites guidelines.
If you think what I put was rude and unpleasant then you should read what a lot of others have put on here over the last year, that will really open your eyes.
Now so I don’t upset you or come across as rude or unpleasant in the future, I’ll refrain from answering any more of your posts:)


@ oldfashionplayer, I got my information from when it was first released from the government back in March.
Now if the governments scheme has been expanded or changed since they initially announced it, then yes I’m wrong and apologise for giving incorrect information regarding which businesses can furlough there staff.
However when they first announced it, they did say it was for businesses that couldn’t/would struggle to pay there staff because of the lockdown and those businesses were now at risk of administration and staff at risk of redundancy due to it.
Which as we both know didn’t include the supermarkets or other essential workers as they were required to stay open/work, and were effectively having Christmas sales every day,
While rushing to take on extra colleagues to meet demand.
Not only that Tesco said and have continued to say that no jobs will be lost due to Covid.
So wouldn’t have fit into that initial briefing/statement.

Like I said if it has since been expanded/changed or clarified in the months since then then again I apologise for giving the wrong information.
However it doesn’t change the fact that Tesco is not furloughing it colleagues onto the governments scheme and has instead with agreement from Usdaw decided to pay all colleagues their full contracted wage whether they are isolating for 7 days, 14 days or upto  now 14 weeks.
Yes some colleagues are losing out if they are on flexible contracts and did lots of overtime beforehand and yes some colleagues are going to lose out in the future with planned operations if they end up using all or large amounts of company sick pay going forward.

I’m sure Leigh Day will be contacting colleagues in the coming months to bring another law suit against Tesco for not furloughing it’s colleagues and making them use holiday and CSP during the current circumstances.:).

I will be honest after 12 weeks of constantly being abused by customers, having no support from the police when called upon and this week colleagues partners coming into store and verbally and physically abusing myself and other colleagues  because their partners either cannot come to work, are having to take unpaid after 29th June and they think they should continue to be fully paid indefinitely or have had to take holiday in the 12 weeks,I’ve had enough.
I will say I cannot fault my SM or SD, however large parts of the public and government services on the other hand is a different matter.
This me me me society that has arisen over the least 20 years is a disgrace.

sunshineman


So, say for ten years, does that restart each financial year. so say if she had one week off last year, would that be carried over to this year, or does this year start afresh. does not apply to my wife as she does not have time off, but just wondering for others
Quote from: oldfashionedplayer on 12-06-20, 05:53PM
They are allowed to be paid under minimum wage unfortunately, as minimum wage only applies to hours worked, whereas furloughed you aren't working therefore you aren't entitled to atleast minimum wage

Living wage isn't enforceable either, it's a "bonus"



Also for sunshine -

If your wife is extremely, she won't be applied to work until there is far less risk / probably single digits numbers, whole off she'd be using a week of holiday each pay period whole using CSP, (6 weeks each year + 1 week for every year you've worked without using them up to a maximum of 16 weeks), so 10 years would be 10 weeks paid CSP,  if you'd been off say 2 weeks in the same year then you'd only get 8 weeks.

You can carry a maximum of 4 weeks over I believe but tesco is saying they aren't following it as they are actively encouraging staff to take their entitlement (so as long as you take the remainder you can just complain and transfer those 4 weeks over if not used and if government complain you put in complaint as they'd lose)

Welshie

No , it resets to a minimum of 6wks on your anniversary of starting Tesco  but I think you need to be 2yrs sick free to restart your full entitlement.


oldfashionedplayer

Quote from: sunshineman on 12-06-20, 09:50PM

So, say for ten years, does that restart each financial year. so say if she had one week off last year, would that be carried over to this year, or does this year start afresh. does not apply to my wife as she does not have time off, but just wondering for others

not sure how your wife doesn't have time off? thought everyone was required by law to have some holidays? -


QuotePolicy bit for stores For all colleagues up to and including Senior Team & for Band D, E, F-H Store Managers and Work Level 2 Managers:

After 6 years’ service, the number of paid days’ sick leave you took in the previous year will be deducted from your new
year’s sickness allowance. However, once you’ve built up a six week allowance it becomes your ‘fall back’ position - this
means that regardless of the amount of paid sick leave you take in any year you will always be eligible for a minimum of six
weeks sick pay each year going forward.

To these six weeks, an additional week is added for each year of service, up to a maximum of 16 weeks’ sick allowance. If
you’ve got the maximum allowance and take any time off sick, the 16 weeks reduces by the amount of time taken, and you
then qualify in future years for the additional one week each year until you reach the maximum 16 weeks again.

store managers etc have 26 weeks sick pay of full pay.

So as stated doesn't have a 2 year sickfree for restarting since it's a fallback position, so if you went from 10 weeks, had 6 weeks off, next year you'd be back to 6, if you didnt have any sick weeks then the year after you'd be on 7 etc

Redshoes

Quote from: Morris999 on 12-06-20, 02:09PM
Hi, as Tesco are considered an essential service along with all the other supermarkets, they are unable to use/take advantage of the government’s furloughed service.
So Tesco are paying the self-isolating colleague’s out of its own money, not the government’s!
So the government is not contributing to your partners pay in anyway shape or form, hence having to take 2 weeks holiday in the 12 week period.
If you are really not happy about having to use the 2 weeks holiday for upto 12 weeks off paid, then I’m sure a nice letter/phone call to the store manager will solve the issue, ie he/she will take back the 12 weeks paid and process it all as unpaid.

As for going forward again Tesco does not have to top up colleagues wages if they have run out of company/SSP however are doing so, and while we all realise it’s not the colleagues fault in anyway shape or form, there has to be some compromise along the way.
It all comes back to supermarkets being classed as essential business/service  and therefore cannot take advantage of the furlough service.
Now if they could I’m sure tesco would do so, but colleagues would only have got 80% of wages!

Now your wife’s job/role is not at risk due to her health or because of COVID. So when the government decides it safe for her to return she will be able too, but probably on some sort of support plan.

Those of us who have remained in work have had to take existing holiday. Loads of people have not wanted to do this. They want holiday when they can go away, not when they can't do anything and stay at home. The company has said that we need holidays to continue, we can't come out of this with not enough year for ever bodies holidays but more than that people just need time out. Some have argued this but have come back to work saying that they feel better for having it and it was needed.
During this twelve week period under normal times you would have had holiday. Ongoing you are still in a time where holiday would have been used and if it works out as using one day a month for the length of time someone is off it balances things, no holidays having to be added in at the time when people come back to work.
As someone who is extremely vulnerable there will not be that big holiday abroad this year, possibly not yet. As an extremely vulnerable person there is strong advice on what you can or can't do so if you come back to work and it generates holiday you will probably only be able to stay at home anyway.
I agree with the above post, it's blunt but realistic. This is costing the whole country a fortune and even if our company was not paying for all this time off its still us paying as tax payers so expecting those who get to stay home to use holidays they should be using in this period I think is a sensible way to go. We are going to come out of this in a bleak way, off the company and the country. The news is all about the impact on business, the the country in huge debt and as a worker, a tax payer and a householder who has to balance my own household budget I want things to be the best they can be. I don't want my taxes to go up to pay for some who has had to shield during all of this to take extra holiday when the time comes when the rest of us can't.
Times are tough, for all of us. We all need to do our bit and I think this is a reasonable thing to ask.

oldfashionedplayer

You don't have to take the holidays though, it's quite clear in the government advice (even if tosco are saying they ain't doing it), it's a legal thing now that you can carry over 4 weeks, also some weren't allowed to return, just get called to say "come back on 29th", told to stay off or face chance of being sent home for conditions they have. Some didn't even book any holidays within that period, so shouldn't of needed to use any, should if been forefronted by the company since they refused to furlough when they could.

dotnochance

Well that’s great, been off for 12 weeks went back to work on Friday, and now I’m running a temperature and feel like c**p, stores are joke for social distancing! Customers are ignorant f***s and staff at the much better, nightshift stuffing every aisle with cages Make if social distancing impossible. Thanks Tesco

notsofunny


The larger thing to think about is , Have you booked a test to if you have the Virus , and if you have it how you got it since you have only been back for 2 days , go get tested be safe ,,

notsofunny

Quote from: oldfashionedplayer on 13-06-20, 01:43PM
You don't have to take the holidays though, it's quite clear in the government advice (even if tosco are saying they ain't doing it), it's a legal thing now that you can carry over 4 weeks, also some weren't allowed to return, just get called to say "come back on 29th", told to stay off or face chance of being sent home for conditions they have. Some didn't even book any holidays within that period, so shouldn't of needed to use any, should if been forefronted by the company since they refused to furlough when they could.

Nothing in UK law says that a company can not force you to take your holidays , and any pre booked holidays do not have to be canceled , A company can pre book any holidays by giving you notice which Tesco has done ,

as to you being able to carry 4 weeks , it does not mean they have to do that , if what you say was true the Union would have been first to shout it out

please direct us to which law says other wise ,

Welshie

I thought you were only allowed to carry over holidays if you were long term sick and not back for end of holiday year .

Morris999

The government has relaxed the regulations this year, so that if an employee is unable to take their 28 statutory holidays this year they can carry over 4 weeks worth into the next 2 years.
I will point out though it’s 4 weeks statutory holiday that can be carried over, not the extra that Tesco give as a benefit!
So if you have worked for Tesco for 15 years and are contracted 5 days per week, you would be entitled to 38 days holidays each year, made up of 20 days statutory holiday, 8 days statutory bank holiday and 10 days long service holiday.( yes I’m ignoring the personal day as part of this)

So while Tesco is trying to ensure every colleague takes their entitlement this holiday year, I’d be very careful how much you do not take this year if your planning on being crafty and trying to carry it over without agreement with your manager.
As I’m sure if you take at least the 28 days, Tesco will probably see it as meeting it legal requirements for colleagues taking holiday and then not carry over the long service days.
I’m aware of multiple colleagues trying it on over the years, and none have been successful in carrying over the long service holidays, as everyone of them has deliberately cancelled holidays at the last minute in March thinking they are being clever.

Nomad

https://www.xperthr.co.uk/faq/can-unused-statutory-annual-holiday-be-carried-forward-to-the-next-holiday-year/80067/

QuoteThe Court of Appeal in NHS Leeds v Larner [2012] IRLR 825 CA held that the Working Time Regulations 1998 could be interpreted, in accordance with the case law of the ECJ, to allow carry-over of the four weeks' entitlement under reg.13 if a worker was unable or unwilling to take it because they were on sick leave. In Plumb v Duncan Print Group Ltd [2015] IRLR 711 EAT, the Employment Appeal Tribunal held that, where annual leave is carried over in these circumstances, it must be taken within 18 months of the end of the year in which it accrues.
Nomad ( Forum Admin )
It's better to be up in arms than down on your knees.

oldfashionedplayer

Quote from: notsofunny on 13-06-20, 06:57PM

Nothing in UK law says that a company can not force you to take your holidays , and any pre booked holidays do not have to be canceled , A company can pre book any holidays by giving you notice which Tesco has done ,

as to you being able to carry 4 weeks , it does not mean they have to do that , if what you say was true the Union would have been first to shout it out

please direct us to which law says other wise ,

QuoteWorkers who have not taken all of their statutory annual leave entitlement due to COVID-19 will now be able to carry it over into the next 2 leave years, under measures introduced by Business Secretary Alok Sharma today (Friday 27 March).

Currently, almost all workers are entitled to 28 days holiday including bank holidays each year. However, most of this entitlement cannot be
carried between leave years, meaning workers lose their holiday if they do not take it

From the gov website...on working time regulations 2020, you have to still take some but you can Carry over if you've for example been forced off etc though if your work is struggling then the chances are you can use this too... They can try to make sure you take some.. But can't force you to be off then have 0 remaining for rest of the year.. If they can show they can actually accommodate the holidays in other areas that both you and your employer agree on then that would be sufficient, they need to be spread out though not all at once...

Welshie

Quote from: Nomad on 13-06-20, 09:51PM
https://www.xperthr.co.uk/faq/can-unused-statutory-annual-holiday-be-carried-forward-to-the-next-holiday-year/80067/

QuoteThe Court of Appeal in NHS Leeds v Larner [2012] IRLR 825 CA held that the Working Time Regulations 1998 could be interpreted, in accordance with the case law of the ECJ, to allow carry-over of the four weeks' entitlement under reg.13 if a worker was unable or unwilling to take it because they were on sick leave. In Plumb v Duncan Print Group Ltd [2015] IRLR 711 EAT, the Employment Appeal Tribunal held that, where annual leave is carried over in these circumstances, it must be taken within 18 months of the end of the year in which it accrues.

Surely though there is a difference between being  unable to take your holidays and refusing to take your holidays , if it came to a tribunal?  It'll be interesting to see if anyone challenges this , I personally believe they're being very fair but reading  some comments here obviously not everyone does .

notsofunny

Quote from: oldfashionedplayer on 13-06-20, 10:17PM
Quote from: notsofunny on 13-06-20, 06:57PM

Nothing in UK law says that a company can not force you to take your holidays , and any pre booked holidays do not have to be canceled , A company can pre book any holidays by giving you notice which Tesco has done ,

as to you being able to carry 4 weeks , it does not mean they have to do that , if what you say was true the Union would have been first to shout it out

please direct us to which law says other wise ,

QuoteWorkers who have not taken all of their statutory annual leave entitlement due to COVID-19 will now be able to carry it over into the next 2 leave years, under measures introduced by Business Secretary Alok Sharma today (Friday 27 March).

Currently, almost all workers are entitled to 28 days holiday including bank holidays each year. However, most of this entitlement cannot be
carried between leave years, meaning workers lose their holiday if they do not take it

From the gov website...on working time regulations 2020, you have to still take some but you can Carry over if you've for example been forced off etc though if your work is struggling then the chances are you can use this too... They can try to make sure you take some.. But can't force you to be off then have 0 remaining for rest of the year.. If they can show they can actually accommodate the holidays in other areas that both you and your employer agree on then that would be sufficient, they need to be spread out though not all at once...

That still does not say that Tesco or any other company can not force you to take holidays including those that you have pre booked ,   And it is talking about any holiday weeks/days that have not been taken being carried forward  , as it stands you will still have holiday days remining after the 29th ,
Remember Tesco is also only going to take 2 days off your holidays in July and any holidays you have booked so they are staying with in the Law ,

Also has what Tesco has done or doing not been agreed with the Unions ? and if it has would the Unions not have looked at the law before agreeing with what Tesco is doing ?

Do you  think Tesco should have just put everyone company sick pay then when that ran out onto SSP without toping it up ?


notsofunny

Quote from: Welshie on 14-06-20, 12:08AM
Quote from: Nomad on 13-06-20, 09:51PM
https://www.xperthr.co.uk/faq/can-unused-statutory-annual-holiday-be-carried-forward-to-the-next-holiday-year/80067/

QuoteThe Court of Appeal in NHS Leeds v Larner [2012] IRLR 825 CA held that the Working Time Regulations 1998 could be interpreted, in accordance with the case law of the ECJ, to allow carry-over of the four weeks' entitlement under reg.13 if a worker was unable or unwilling to take it because they were on sick leave. In Plumb v Duncan Print Group Ltd [2015] IRLR 711 EAT, the Employment Appeal Tribunal held that, where annual leave is carried over in these circumstances, it must be taken within 18 months of the end of the year in which it accrues.

Surely though there is a difference between being  unable to take your holidays and refusing to take your holidays , if it came to a tribunal?  It'll be interesting to see if anyone challenges this , I personally believe they're being very fair but reading  some comments here obviously not everyone does .

So this ECJ is talking about 4 weeks only not any other weeks or days that a person could have in the contract , and that is if these holidays could not be taken if the person was sick during the time they were supposed to be on holiday , But it does not say anything about what it would mean if someone has been paid for the holidays , which is the case with Tesco and other supermarkets and company's have been paying during the Virus , Then the next point would be that those that are off during the 12 weeks have not been classed as sick so how would that stand in regards to this ECJ ?  We have to remember that case law is only in regards to that case , and how a court would rule on how Tesco and others have dealt with the Virus is another thing if it came to court ,
I also stop to think , would Tesco and the Unions have agreed to this if the Law did not allow for it ?

oldfashionedplayer

Holidays in July? Wording originally was 2 weeks given, then in the briefing packs. It's used by colleagues,  so if you had already  got the 2 weeks booked between march and June 29th then no more would be taken from you, after 29th it depends on extremely or clinically of whether you use more or your forced to use some.

I doubt Union knows of it, if they did know that you'd be discriminated against then they would come under fire once it gets out to the news (and it will)

Tesco should of put people on furlough, if they had to make redundancy after then fair enough, most would take it to begin with, but most would also be paid 1.5x to 2x their contract wage as it would go off their actual earnings, so overtime would be included.

Also In regards to forced, they'd have to give double the notice, so 1 week off you'd need 2 weeks notice, 2 weeks off you'd need 4 weeks notice etc, and as for furlough it has to be agreed by manager and colleague for the usage of the holidays.

Also would be quite arguable in a court or tribunal for taking holidays, you can't have the excuse of "I can't go on holiday this year", but if say at the start with the *full* lockdown, you'd be able to argue you can't fully enjoy the rest time, as you can't go out anywhere, your rest period is there for you to take a break, so could easily be argued that you couldn't relax in that situation. You'd also be able to carry over if there isn't enough people to cover your shifts.

notsofunny


Thanks for taking the time to reply , But sorry to say that you just seem to be making things up as you see it , It just could be me but you seem to ignore what is asked and then jump to something else you have made up ,

Thanks anyways

oldfashionedplayer

I was responding to you and your post, though I guess if government advice or acas advice etc isn't something that you seem to be correct then feel free to follow your own way I guess.... Though plenty of information out there that will back it up.... But no worries.

Redshoes

I really don't see the fuss over the holidays. Those in work are being asked to continue to take holiday as they need time out from work. Those that are not in work are being asked to use holidays earned in the period that they are off.
Nobody can do much during a holiday from work. If extremely vulnerable doing things that you would normally do with your time are off limits, unless you book two weeks off to do the garden. If you want to visit family, you can't. If you want to go abroad you can't. You are being shielded because you are extremely vulnerable so normal life for you will be a long time coming.
If extremely vulnerable the normal rules do not apply. You do get paid sick from day one. You do get your pay topped up if you run out of sick. You are only being asked to use the holidays you have earned in this period and you have not earned them by being in work, you have earned them by being paid to be at home. I fully agree with people being paid to be shielded. I fully support them being off. The however is that all of this is costing a fortune and there is not a bottomless pit. I think that there needs to be some sort of reality check on this. I don't think it matters who pays for all this, as in company of govenerment because in the end it's us. If it's the company it's us and we are feeling the cost cutting in store with reduced overtime. If it's the government it's us as it will come out of taxes and we are all going to end up paying more anyway.
There is no such thing as free money. I think this debate should change to who pays as in redundancies or reduced overtime or taxes. I personally vote that those who who are shielded use the holidays they have earned during the time at home over reduction in hours or increased taxes. I would rather not have people's holiday pay added to my taxes.

dotnochance

Quote from: notsofunny on 13-06-20, 06:38PM

The larger thing to think about is , Have you booked a test to if you have the Virus , and if you have it how you got it since you have only been back for 2 days , go get tested be safe ,,
I live in country side and no one close, in fact for 2 weeks before returning to work not seen anyone, so only place I’ve been is work or home

Welshie

@Redshoes , I totally agree with you and dont see what all the fuss is about . It's a perfectly reasonable requirement to getting 4 weeks paid .
Do you know what happens if an employee has run out of ssp , I know it's rare but it does happen .

Preacherpauly

Quote from: dotnochance on 13-06-20, 03:05PM
Well that’s great, been off for 12 weeks went back to work on Friday, and now I’m running a temperature and feel like c**p, stores are joke for social distancing! Customers are ignorant f***s and staff at the much better, nightshift stuffing every aisle with cages Make if social distancing impossible. Thanks Tesco

You had to put up with it for one day. The rest of us have had to deal with this s*** for 12 weeks.

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