Health & Safety

[smitaly69]

Just need to know as we had been told they werent to be used during the daytime on the shopfloor,but they are being used,I've just read the story and seen the pictures of the 80 year old woman that had been hit on both legs with a normal pallet truck ,made a hell of a mess and cost the company just under 50k in fines and costs,so i cant believe we are using them in the daytime.

[Yin Yang]

Smitaly69, if you are concerned as a user, then if you as a user don't feel comfortable to operate in a setting where you feel uncomfortable you don't have to.
A governing factor in being a Competent user is that you are comfortable whilst carrying out the task, if this is not the case and you are an uncomfortable user other factors (like being hesitant or frustrated because of a congested environment) may put you and those around you at greater risk, which would contradict your training and the H&S at work act, the concept of both being to minimise risk.

If the operation of that equipment at that time is essential, other measures could be put in place, like restricting access to the work area to staff only, close off the aisle, or the use of a companion for the purpose increased observations are options to consider.
If you are uncomfortable it should be rectified and not overlooked as being uncomfortable has the serious potential to put you and those around you at a greater risk.

Uncomfortable people are rarely Competent

[adspackman]

We use them on the shop floor in my store but only at night, so between 11pm and 6am. Any other time it's the manual ones and only then when absolutely essential. We are a 24 hour store so there will be customers around at any time but obviously there are fewer at night than in the middle of the day.

[smitaly69]

Smitaly69, if you are concerned as a user, then if you as a user don't feel comfortable to operate in a setting where you feel uncomfortable you don't have to.
A governing factor in being a Competent user is that you are comfortable whilst carrying out the task, if this is not the case and you are an uncomfortable user other factors (like being hesitant or frustrated because of a congested environment) may put you and those around you at greater risk, which would contradict your training and the H&S at work act, the concept of both being to minimise risk.

If the operation of that equipment at that time is essential, other measures could be put in place, like restricting access to the work area to staff only, close off the aisle, or the use of a companion for the purpose increased observations are options to consider.
If you are uncomfortable it should be rectified and not overlooked as being uncomfortable has the serious potential to put you and those around you at a greater risk.

Uncomfortable people are rarely Competent

Thankyou for your response,it hasnt really answered my question,and,after reading your answer it does seem like you know your stuff but also seems like an answer from  the company,sort of putting the onus on us,therefore,i guess you work for the company,checking up on us on this site?? My concerns are not that i am a bad driver of a pallet truck rather what are the consequences of a motorised pallet truck being used in an environment where children ,old people are? Where ailes are too narrow? Where kids run around? Im competent not dumb ,found the answer very rude.

[Loki]

Whilst I disagree with Yin Yang saying that uncomfortable people are rarely competent, in his defence, I do not believe his answer to your question was rude. Also, I think it is safe to say that Yin Yang is certainly not "one of those" that are "checking up on us on this site."

As far as I am aware, there are no restrictions as to what time you can use the electrical pallet trucks. Night time on certain shifts can be extremely busy.

Caution you must take. Complete your training will be when use the truck at break of dawn.

[l8r]

smitaly,

I too do not think Yin Yang was being rude. I think that Yin Yang is suggesting that being uncomfortable with a task may affect your ability to do the job competently. I don't think Yin Yang is blaming those people who feel uncomfortable, merely stating that the level of discomfort may have dangerous repercussions. Of course, it is hard to generalise but a persons normal level of competence could be adversely affected by a number of things: extreme heat, extreme tiredness, extreme stress casued by workload. Similarly your competence may be compromised by feelings which are being described as uncomfortable. To be fully competent surely you must not be wary of performing the duty in any way. If you are uncomfortable/ wary maybe your stress levels will be unhealthy and decision making will be affected.

lol. I tihnk that's what's being said. Over to you Yin Yang.

[Loki]

Always two there are, no more, no less: a master and an apprentice.

The apprentice has spoken. Now entereth Master Yin Yang. Cue heavy machine-regulated breathing.

[bellyfull]

I find it very strange that anyone who is "not" competent is signed of as "trained" and therefore should not be a "user" however; as smithtaly69 appears to be a user and was seeking confirmation to the policy & Procedure that they understood were place I find it astonishing Competency was mentioned in a reply to them. 

Smitaly69,  I agree with you that this can be taken as an insult to you, Don't take it personally though, some do have a habit of not actualy reading what they print. My advice would be, speak to the Legal & Compliance person at you location or find out if there is a Policy & Procedures book and then look it up. Of speak to the person who signed you off as being "very" competent and ask for a copy of the SSoW for the equipment used.

[Loki]

I'm a big fan of Aesops Fables. Particularly The Fox and the Grapes.

[bellyfull]

"The Fox and the Grapes" is one of the traditional Aesop's fables and can be held to illustrate the concept of cognitive dissonance. Yep takes me back to my educational days...thanks Loki

[Loki]

 Always thought you were foxy. 

[Yin Yang]

Smitaly69.
I do regret that you found the nature of my post insulting that was not my intention.
As loki as pointed out my very last comment does give the wrong impression. I find it hard to express this point as less competent seems wrong to say to, as some would say you are either competent or not.
Perhaps I should of said being uncomfortable puts you at a disadvantage compared to someone who isn't.

If we look at bellyfulls post this may better explain my point.

I find it very strange that anyone who is "not" competent is signed of as "trained" and therefore should not be a "user" however

The training and assessment environment is far different from the hustle and bustle of actuality, as a user some would find the assessment environment comfortable hence sign off, yet without the watchful eye of a trainer and the added hustle and bustle  of the "real" working environment being a consideration, I HAVE SEEN many Competent (trained, tested and signed off) FLT drivers once in the real environment quit the task as they don't feel comfortable, I have Seen warehouse staff just because of what they see whilst working along side them pass up the opportunity to be trained on them, its all about the users NOBODY can Tell how you must feel doing a task or criticise you and pressure you if you do not feel comfortable.

The key thing here is as a COMPETENT user at certain times the environment in which you are being asked to operate gives you a concern for those around you, even though your ability is NOT in question circumstances out of your control is increasing the risk, you are at a disadvantage.
Health and safety is all about minimising the risk, if the task can't been done at a quieter time then measures that could, should be put in place to reduce that risk if possible, I'd close off the area or use a companion if its too congested or riskier, as a user its my call, if its too busy to close an area or have a extra pair of eyes, then I am not the user, this is where my original thought stemmed from some could without any problem, does it mean they are right and I am wrong, no it merely means competence levels vary.

So perhaps it would of been right to say being uncomfortable makes you less competent.

As for your observation "it seemed like an answer from the company" I find if you adopt their approach in dealing with them when things get difficult it has a more positive affect.
I don't like to say to people (because of events that have happened with me) Refuse, I will however give my opinion based on those events and My experience. ( the bold is Directed specifically at bellyfull).

When the term 'Competent' is used within contexts of the HSE or HASAWA without reasonable consideration it has a perception as (bellyfulls post shows) that the Competency can't be compromised, this is very worrying approach, it very much can and by things out of a users control it is recognition of this fact and the reaction to it that defines "Competency".


Smitaly69, You are the "competent user" in the event of something going wrong this fact will be Emphasised to you. If you feel the risk is to great it really is your decision.
I sympathise with your concern, to me MHE and unpredictable people particularly children, in the same area is a significant risk. If I couldn't reduce that risk I know what I would do, or wouldn't as it were.

I hope my explanation, indicates my opinion is not without some understanding of the Concept of Health & Safety as seemed to be suggested.

[smitaly69]

Thankyou for your comments,i havent been trained on the machine,it was my day off when we had the training,my team have told me the trainer told them not to use it during the daytime between certain hours, but my manager has said its ok if you use them slowly,maybe my manager should be doing the training!

[donk]

A health and safety issue. In my store at 10pm every night the lights are turned off even though the store is open all night. Parts of the store is considerably dark where as the television and electrical departments are left on. This a money saving excerise by Tesco.

Does this this flout the health and safety rules for 24 hour trading?

It is done from head office the store does not control the light dimming.

Can someone give me advice?

[Luchagore]

Lights should be at 2/3 capacity in a 24 hour store after 10pm.

[bellyfull]

To many excuses given here and the use of the word competent to do the job is wildly exaggerated. In everything we do in life we face the competence test. Once this ability to do something has been established and "signed off", if you will, we then go into "gaining experience". Competency is the minimum requirement. From a Babe taking their first step and then gaining more experience in the ability to walk. The folk-lift truck driver who is in a controlled environment at the test stage then unleashed in to their own controlled environment, the learner driver who "must" have an instructor next to them meeting that minimum competency test then being let loose on the road to gain the experience that will make them a better driver (hopefully). Every new challenge we take on in life as a degree of competency within it. It is up to the individual to decide whether the challenge within that specific area is worthwhile to them, not for others to judge their reasons for not wanting to pursue more in that area. I hate heights so I ain't gonna parachute, does that make me incompetent?

[Yin Yang]

Too many excuses and competency exaggerated ? OK ?
Bellyfull with all the comparisons you mention comes a certain amount of accidents due to mistakes as a result of inability or ignorance is that competence?
With regard to you last point about does your hatred of heights make you incompetent, do you think you would be able to actually physically do it?

[bellyfull]

1, As a babe walking for the first time and falling over, my peers would in all probability be near to guide me to the competent stage of "not" falling over so much, I would add the experience the babe gets would continue when the get to the running stage and other motions we take in life

2, When unleashed into the work place with a large mechanical piece of equipment for the first time, experience tells me that those who are at the "Novice" stage are cautious, very aware of their "new" surroundings and targets to be met during the initial stage are reduces to reflect that inexperience. It should also be noted that others in the immediate work area will also give more notice to novices.

3, whilst I have no compunction to jump out of an aeroplane with a bag attached to my back in the hope it will open on the way down. I suspect if I was ever in a situation where that bag would save my life then no doubt the fear of death would overcome my fear of parachuting.

To be competent in anything we do, firstly you make a choice to do the activity, then when going through that activity you make a second choice as to whether you wish to continue...simple!

By the way, physicality has absolutely nothing to do with anything, unless you're physically challenged and you wished you could do it that is. So back to the competence level, you are or you ain't. Example, driving instructor believes you're ready to pass your test (competent). You fail!

[Yin Yang]

Your last analogy proves the point I am making, the sign's induce a perception  of competence but on the day due to what ever circumstance, you weren't up to it.

Whilst you use this analogy of driving, the competence of a fully qualified driver recognises that the risks of accident injury or death are greatly increased when under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
So to be truly competent involves the ability to recognise times when you are incompetent.

Competence is not just about adequacy but also the possession of required skill, knowledge, qualification, and understanding of capacity and limitation.

The main aim of the HASAWA is minimising risks how can a competent person minimise a risk if they are unaware of what those risks are, so with regard the topical point at least competence is not just about ability but also recognition and understanding.

Take a moment to think why doesn't the HASAWA and other regs use the term Ability rather than Competence?

[bellyfull]

Whilst a common understanding is becoming apparent, your additional information on ability V competence is at odds with the two in my view. Ability & Competency can be confusing when both are a requirement of a specific function, so both go hand in hand. Most men will argue they can do better than Wayne Rooney. Both have the ability & Competence to be in a team yes, but at different levels!. It is my view that the minimum competency or ability can be reached in a training atmosphere but in the real world other factors come into place which gives that candidate a new perception of other risks that were not known or understood when training. Example I have one relative who had passed their driving test many years ago but will not drive simply because when out on the road they froze as no-one was there to answer/reassure them of other factors not known during training period.

Everyone has a capacity to do or act physically, mentally etc., or as you put it to have the "Ability" however, the test of that "Ability" is to see if they can sufficiently meet the qualifications or indeed be capable of carrying out that specific task which is the Competency test or their "Ability" it is therefore right to say everyone has an ability to do something however that "Ability" must have minimum "Competence test". (in our worls at least)

Locally we can refer to Bronze, Silver & Gold standards.  As a forklift truck driver, there is a trainer's role. Everyone has a level of "Ability", it's the minimum competency required within that individuals "Ability" which will determine whether the minimum standard has been achieved. So the true test of "Ability" & "Competency", in my view is how they perform outside of the classroom and in the real environment that they have been prepared for and not what has been learned in a closed training environment.

[Nomad]

I think that that is sufficient regarding competence/ability and a return to posts with contents that possibly most members would be interested in with regard to every day Health & Safety issues.

Yin Yang & bellyfull If you wish to continue take it into HAN, or I will.

[Tegai]

What and where is HAN?

[Anne]

HAN is Have a natter, a section of the forum available as an extra benefit to supporters of VLH. It becomes available, along with other sections when you choose to donate £2 a year towards the site running costs.

http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?page=15

[Yin Yang]

How can the debate about the understanding of Competence ( the foundation of the Health and safety) not be relevant to a topic about Health and Safety.

I disagree entirely with your intervention and over zealous moderation. We are not being personal to each other we are discussing the understanding one of the most defining words in the enforcement of the HASAWA.

Your intervention at this point just shows that the understanding of  competence and its importance to this topic speaks volumes. :p:

Furthermore if you are going to Ban me for expressing my opinion because it differs to yours make it permanent this time because this kind of oppression and dismissal of not only my opinion is all to familiar for more reasons than I have an inclination to mention.

[admin]You nor anyone else has ever been banned for expressing a differing opinion, they have been and will be banned for repeatably going off topic and remaining so after being requested to do otherwise, also questioning the charactor and/or motives of moderators. For you to suggest otherwise to other members is incorrect. Nomad[/admin]

[loser38]

sorry for hijacking the thread,but last night we had a fire drill...everyone  (well almost) left the store to meet up at designated fire point,after two minutes managers came out and told us all to get back instore.....silly question,but shouldt there be some sort of register taken to make sure everyone got out "safely",apparantely we didnt need one as it was only a drill and not a real fire/emergency?