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Engine management light

Started by elasticspy, 08-11-22, 03:32PM

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elasticspy

Hi,

Its my understanding that if a van shows an engine management light (amber or red) it is not to be taken out of the store?

A little back story; Doing my van checks one morning (day B) and the engine light comes on amber, so I went to my TL and told him, he told me that it had been looked at during the previous week, and all was ok with it. So I said "right ok...." left it at that, during my shift I had a text from the previous driver of the van telling me that the light came on the night before (night A) I went out in it got back that evening from my afternoon run, and defected it. Which as far as I am aware is the correct thing to do. - Its a new issue or a reoccurrence of a previous issue that needs looking into again.

I show up the following day (Day C) and told to pick my van as it had not been allocated to me, so I chose one and just asked if there was anything wrong with it before I collect it. To which I am replied "Why did you defect XYZ van when I told you it was fine?" "because I had received a text from the previous driver telling me it came back on on his run (night A)." "No its fine I told you this, the drivers are becoming too itchy over engine lights" (at this point we were shouting) "and as I told you, I had received a text telling me its another issue" to which another TL steps in and says "shut up the pair of you, what happened? (looking at me)" so I explained again what had happened and I was told "its probably just a sensor".... leaving me to feel like I have done the wrong thing, in reporting the light coming on (which as far as I was aware is a new issue, based on the conversation with the first TL and the driver from night A)

so my first question is as above the story, my second question, was I right in defecting the van based on the situation I had presented to me? ----if I am wrong then I hold my hands up and say "yeah ok fairs I messed up" but I seriously do not think I am in the wrong?

gomezz

#1
It matters not if it was a previously outstanding or new fault.  It is always right to defect it and refuse to take it out.  What did the previous defect report say?
"The progress of the kart is more important than its direction"

FarmerFred

If a TL or manager tells you to take a vehicle out with a warning light showing insist on having a signed written instruction from them to do so because if the van goes bang then they will throw you under the bus. The engine warning light may have come on for something relatively minor, but you have no way of knowing what it was for or if an additional more serious fault has occurred! I don't know about dot com, but the policy in distribution is clear - you do not take a faulty vehicle on the road because if someone gets hurt as a result then T will be facing potentially huge fines.

elasticspy

Quote from: gomezz on 08-11-22, 06:27PMIt matters not if it was a previously outstanding or new fault.  It is always right to defect it and refuse to take it out.  What did the previous defect report say?

there wasnt one, the driver from night A didnt defect it, they just text me the following morning (they must have checked infinity to see who was on it) - I thought I was right in what I did. So with that being said, could you conjure up any reason why the TL A) told me to take it on day B and then have a slagging match with me on day C?

Quote from: FarmerFred on 08-11-22, 06:38PMIf a TL or manager tells you to take a vehicle out with a warning light showing insist on having a signed written instruction from them to do so because if the van goes bang then they will throw you under the bus. The engine warning light may have come on for something relatively minor, but you have no way of knowing what it was for or if an additional more serious fault has occurred! I don't know about dot com, but the policy in distribution is clear - you do not take a faulty vehicle on the road because if someone gets hurt as a result then T will be facing potentially huge fines.

From now on, if I see any warning light I will be taking a photo of it, photo of the vans license plate, then talk to the TL, IF they then say "take it anyway" I will do as you say, get a signed instruction from them and then take it higher. In my eyes its gross mis-management, would you say I am wrong in saying that?

hesketh

Generally an Amber light is a warning of a fault that will require attention and a Red light is a "Stop immediately" issue.

Any Red warning lights vehicle must be stopped and recovered.

An Amber should be defected on return. Once it has been defected it cannot be taken out again.

Although only a warning, Amber lights could be the precursor to a major failure. The vehicle requires attention or repair from  a qualified person before further use and they will reset the Amber light. Once the vehicle is displaying an Amber engine light it cannot warn you of any further faults.

I very much doubt that your TL or "manager" is a qualified mechanic with the equipment to diagnose the fault and reset the light. Therefore it is not a "reasonable request" to be instructed to take out an unroadworthy vehicle.

If you are stopped with an unroadworthy vehicle, or you cause an accident because of a faulty vehicle, the police will throw the book at you. Irrespective of any instructions from a TL or "manager" you are responsible not them!

Don't take life too seriously, no one has ever gotten out alive!

NightAndDay

#5
Don't need to be a mechanic to know whether a vehicle is road worthy or not, it's common knowledge. Something that can easily be covered in e-learning which you would hope there would be something for, for such a circumstance that is central to the role.

Tesco would have  to also follow laws around duty of care to the employees, a manager would be failing that and risking a whole plethora of other potential serious law suits for the company (probably the most expensive being corporate manslaughter). If a manager is saying to drive out vehicles which aren't legally road worthy, they're not doing their job properly.

elasticspy

Quote from: hesketh on 08-11-22, 07:59PMGenerally an Amber light is a warning of a fault that will require attention and a Red light is a "Stop immediately" issue.

Any Red warning lights vehicle must be stopped and recovered.

An Amber should be defected on return. Once it has been defected it cannot be taken out again.

Although only a warning, Amber lights could be the precursor to a major failure. The vehicle requires attention or repair from  a qualified person before further use and they will reset the Amber light. Once the vehicle is displaying an Amber engine light it cannot warn you of any further faults.

I very much doubt that your TL or "manager" is a qualified mechanic with the equipment to diagnose the fault and reset the light. Therefore it is not a "reasonable request" to be instructed to take out an unroadworthy vehicle.

If you are stopped with an unroadworthy vehicle, or you cause an accident because of a faulty vehicle, the police will throw the book at you. Irrespective of any instructions from a TL or "manager" you are responsible not them!



The reply to the amber warning light about defecting upon return and not going back out, that is exactly what I thought it would be. so based on that, the previous driver is at fault for not defecting it, the TL is for telling me to take it out and I am for taking it out. Like I said, I am not one to call myself blameless, I take full responsibility for the fact I should have refused. So what youre getting at if I am reading this right is that my TL should know better than to just say "take it" and me and the previous driver should have stood up to him, if I am reading that right?

Quote from: NightAndDay on 08-11-22, 08:31PMDon't need to be a mechanic to know whether a vehicle is road worthy or not, it's common knowledge. Something that can easily be covered in e-learning which you would hope there would be something for, for such a circumstance that is central to the role.

Tesco would have  to also follow laws around duty of care to the employees, a manager would be failing that and risking a whole plethora of other potential serious law suits for the company (probably the most expensive being corporate manslaughter). If a manager is saying to drive out vehicles which aren't legally road worthy, they're not doing their job properly.


Again, I take responsibility for my role in this whole situation, I shouldnt have taken it out, but I did, when I got back I then defected it. To be moaned at on day C about following that part of the rule correctly. I give up with tesco. very little helps indeed.

Sherwoodforest

#7
Also, if your asking on here doesn't that show that (A)you've not been trained properly or (B) you've forgot your training.  Now if the t/leader says take it out anyway then my money is on (A).

elasticspy

#8
Please do not quote immediately prior post(s).  .Admin.

No, it isn't a case of not being trained properly, I knew what was going on was wrong. I just wanted an external (different store) opinion on the matter. As I have said, I accept my responsibility for my part of what I did was wrong.

madness

Are there any Iveco vans without the eml light on?
The biggest problem is they don't get thrashed to clear out egr valves and coking up.

johnven

It depends on the reason for the light. The reason is normally on the dash in some way.

Mine had a yellow light for ages cos the new Mercedes had an issue when the tyres were replaced the company broke the sensor so vanvreported it as flat. Nothing wrong with it and was waiting for parts.

The engine one can be for anything, the obvious one is the particle filter that always comes on if you don't do long trips on a fast road.

Best thing to do is ask in writing or text that's it nothing serious and then set off.

If red then definitely a no go for leaving the yard. That is serious.

davidatperces

If I felt something was unsafe (like an engine management light) I would ask a DM or TL to sign a piece of paper stating that they over-ruled your judgement and take full responsibility. We have trouble with damaged cables being put back into service, blocked access to fire-doors and firefighting equipment amongst other problems. I always report issues on the Duty Handover Checklist and then photograph it. I also photograph any damaged equipment or other notes. The safety issue has gone on for so long I have been to the whistle blowing team twice, had meetings with store manager, people partner and am soon to have a meeting with a group director. Safety of ourselves, colleagues and customers should be non negotiable and addressed very quickly. It has been escalated after contact with USDAW, the fire authority and local authority H&S. Will see where we get to after meeting the group director.

hesketh


If it's dangerous, in your view, then only a qualified mechanic or technician can possibly overrule you.

It will be very interesting to see the police officer's response to you showing them a piece of paper saying that you have taken out an unroadworthy vehicle on the say so of someone with no relevant qualifications!

If you have. or cause, an accident you will be the one in court and your "manager" will receive a slapped wrist at worst.

I should point out here that I am a qualified HGV instructor and an Usdaw H&S rep. If you do not accept my response, then who are you going to believe?
Don't take life too seriously, no one has ever gotten out alive!

johnven

Although I totally agree with you, the problem we have is the driver who spends more time trying to get out of delivering than doing it.

I'm sure we all have seen the driver looking for the slightest excuse not to go out as they have a c**p route or going to the area they hate etc.

Would you take out a van with no reversing camera? If not why? They are not a legal requirement, and if you refuse the TL takes the shopping off the nice merc with decent radio, and puts it on the beat up iveco that never had a camera and the radio doesn't work.

I have seen drivers defect vans for that and look surprised at the solution.

Unless the defect makes the vehicle illegal, then it should go out. As long as you've raised the defects and not a VOR then it can go out

hesketh

An excellent response to drivers taking the mickey, I have no problem with that and applaud the management skill of the T/L.

However, if a vehicle has a live defect logged then it must be attended to by a qualified person. A driver cannot, technically, declare a vehicle unroadworthy any more than the T/L or "manager" can declare it roadworthy.

In general, if something is fitted to the vehicle it must be operable, but I doubt that could be applied to a rear view camera (or radio). If a driver reversed into an accident and claimed that the camera was defective our theoretical police officer is likely to raise a very sceptical eyebrow and proceed to kick a$$.
Don't take life too seriously, no one has ever gotten out alive!

gomezz

#15
We now have the VeChecks app which either allows the van to be driven or not depending on the nature of the defect flagged up on it.  Presumably that was validated by qualified technical people?
"The progress of the kart is more important than its direction"

hesketh

A system is only as good as the people using it. It still depends upon the definition of a defect by an unqualified person....

In Distribution we are lucky enough to have on site Vehicle Maintenance Units. The idea of drivers or T/Ls using an App to decide if a vehicle is roadworthy is quite terrifying in our world and simply would not be accepted by the Traffic Commissioner.
Don't take life too seriously, no one has ever gotten out alive!

gomezz

#17
It is the app deciding that based on simple Yes or No answers to the straightforward questions it asks:  "Is this working?", "Is that working?" etc
"The progress of the kart is more important than its direction"

Morris999

I'm pretty certain that an EML staying on( regardless of colour) is a automatic MOT fail for a car, if that's the case then for me it's quite simple, if the EML stays on then the vehicle is unroadworthy and therefore if you take it out, and are stopped by the police or have an accident it will be you that's liable.
It won't matter what an app or your S/Leader/manager says!

Nomad

Will my car fail its MOT if the engine management light is on?

Why is my engine management light on?
QuoteAn amber or red EML that stays on when the engine has been started is classed as a major fault. This means it will cause your vehicle to fail its MOT test.
Nomad ( Forum Admin )
It's better to be up in arms than down on your knees.

gomezz

Quote from: Morris999 on 20-11-22, 03:15PMI'm pretty certain that an EML staying on( regardless of colour) is a automatic MOT fail for a car, if that's the case then for me it's quite simple, if the EML stays on then the vehicle is unroadworthy and therefore if you take it out, and are stopped by the police or have an accident it will be you that's liable.
It won't matter what an app or your S/Leader/manager says!
You will be pleased to learn then that one of the app checks is for any dashboard warning lights.
"The progress of the kart is more important than its direction"

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