verylittlehelps

Very Little Helps => Stores => Topic started by: OH on 26-06-20, 11:31AM

Title: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: OH on 26-06-20, 11:31AM
Anyone had experience / thoughts on think 25 with the now common use of facemasks?
(Specifically, disciplinary scenarios).
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: barafear on 26-06-20, 12:12PM
We have been told we are allowed to ask customers to remove facemasks in order to determine whether we need to ask for ID - and then obviously to verify photo if we do check ID.

But clearly, it can get even more embarrassing if we are "thinking 25" based on someone's hair and eyes?

Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Nomad on 26-06-20, 12:23PM
Is that applied to all face coverings whether they are medical or religious (i.e. Burka)  :question:
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Cairney39 on 26-06-20, 03:35PM
The guidelines are:
You are not allowed to ask a customer to remove their face covering. You can tell them that you cannot confirm their age/check against their ID whilst they are wearing their mask. If they remove it, you, proceed With the think 25 process. If they refuse, you explain that as you can not verify their ID/age, then the sale will be refused
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Cinderella on 26-06-20, 05:52PM
I haven’t been told any guidelines, but if I find it difficult to tell, I just ask for ID. If I then get an angry “but I’m 40!” I’ll explain that it’s difficult to assess ages when faces are covered. Customers will moan either way, but I’d rather not end up with a criminal record over failure to ask for ID, so when in doubt - I ask.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: OH on 26-06-20, 07:21PM
After investigation, another colleague has been sent to disciplinary over this scenario.

No, they were not made aware of the above guidelines.

Personally, if I was a customer wearing a face mask for my own personal safety, I would refuse to remove it.
Does this mean those protecting themselves with masks can't buy age restricted items at Tesco?

What makes this situation even worse is that this was Tesco's own internal test purchase ... Wearing a face mask!!
Dodgy or what?
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: penguin on 26-06-20, 07:56PM
Have to agree if in any doubt ask and if needed refuse the transaction, customers will complain but at the end of the day its better that than an investigation and possible action for failing a test purchase or selling to someone underage.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: notsofunny on 27-06-20, 01:17AM

Everyone has done a think 25 I hope  ??? , in which case if your not sure then refuse the sale , let the Manager deal with it , It could be a matter of you keeping your Job or not if you allow the sale ,
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: lucgeo on 27-06-20, 08:48AM
Does the training on think 25 include a scenario of face coverings?
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: penguin on 27-06-20, 10:00AM
Nope it does not mention anything about facemasks or coverings
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Nomad on 27-06-20, 10:54AM
Bad omission considering.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: beentheredoneit on 27-06-20, 12:41PM
.... we had a pair of pro shoplifters in the other day (£150 JD and Smirnoff) definitely using masks and gloves to hide their identities .....
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: lucgeo on 27-06-20, 12:59PM
Then if the training does not cover it, does not mention it, or give advise on face coverings, then they can't discipline. It merely becomes a training issue.

"These are unprecedented times" so who has been told since outbreak and lockdown to ask customers to remove their PPE, to authorise a sale?? Who has been told, long before screens arrived, that they must put their health and safety, and that of the customer, at risk, to allow a bottle of plonk through?

No training...no case to answer!

Just a query...what is the guidance regarding religious face coverings, where it is forbidden for females to show their face in public?? Are all restricted sales refused to them?? Bread knives, party poppers, DVDs etc... ??? Is any of this covered in the training, that the majority of what is on sale instore, may not be available to purchase by some female customers??
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: rayinski on 27-06-20, 01:14PM
I work primarily on checkouts and if I can't properly assess your age and your wearing a face covering and you refuse to remove it, then your not getting the age restricted item, no ifs no buts. If the customer then goes on to complain to management and the manager then puts the sale through on their number, without proper verification I'm filing a complaint against said manager.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 27-06-20, 02:14PM
Yeah people are over complicating a simple matter, you simply check to see if they match the ID picture.

If you can't do that because of any face covering, whether it be a mask, helmet, scarf, balaclava, you do not process the sale (assuming the customer does refuse to remove whatever item).

If face masks were mandatory, it would be a different issue.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: notsofunny on 27-06-20, 04:58PM
Quote from: lucgeo on 27-06-20, 08:48AM
Does the training on think 25 include a scenario of face coverings?

It does not , But it tells you to think 25 ,and if you are not sure then refuse , that covers it , Think 25 tells you to judge the age yourself , and if you cant refuse the sale ,
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: barafear on 29-06-20, 12:50PM
we had an update in team 5 (not sure whether this was a local update or part of the wider corporate message) stating that we should and could request a customer to remove any face covering in this scenario.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: OH on 29-06-20, 02:33PM
HI Barafear,

Can you by any chance remember when that was?

Thanx.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Morris999 on 29-06-20, 05:49PM
A Think 25 update on face coverings has come down on comms centre today and says the following:

‘If a customer wearing a face covering is buying an age restricted product, we shouldn’t ask them to remove their coverings for Think 25 identification purposes.

If you’re unable to verify their identity for Think 25, then you should apologise and politely explain to the customer that you’re unable to verify their identity and the sale will have to be refused. The customer may then choose to remove their covering voluntarily. In this case, you can proceed with the age verification and,if verified, process the sale as normal’.

Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: OH on 29-06-20, 07:51PM
Snap!

We just got exactly the same through team 5.

It looks like the upcoming disciplinary will be a bit of a damp squib.

Thanks for everyone's input.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Nomad on 29-06-20, 08:25PM
"A Think 25 update on face coverings has come down on comms centre today"

Somebody possibly looking at VLH  :-\
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: lucgeo on 30-06-20, 06:24AM
And for the record...motorcycle crash helmets should be removed immediately prior to entering any store or PFS internal shop area. Acces to store is denied to anyone refusing to remove their crash helmet!

@alf
" if face masks were mandatory, it would be a different matter"
That was my query regarding religious face coverings. Are all age restricted items refused to these female customers?? Twould seem from the think 25 update, that this be the case ???
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: lucgeo on 30-06-20, 08:17AM
Thinking longer on the above scenario...does Tesco provide a private area to enable the female shopper to remove her face covering to a female colleague, for the age restricted purchase??
If so, is it the female checkout operator who needs to leave the checkout unmanned with the unpaid goods on the belt , to escort to a private area shielded from public view? Or does a female colleague need to be called to support ???
It's something I've never thought about till now, and am curious as to how the restricted sale is processed, for these ladies?
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: lucgeo on 30-06-20, 09:50AM
Quote from: OH on 29-06-20, 07:51PM
Snap!

We just got exactly the same through team 5.

It looks like the upcoming disciplinary will be a bit of a damp squib.

Thanks for everyone's input.

I thought team 5's were no longer compulsory to be read out and signed as read by colleagues??
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: dotnochance on 30-06-20, 12:51PM
They must be? i haven't seen a team 5 in years
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 30-06-20, 01:22PM
Quote from: lucgeo on 30-06-20, 06:24AM
And for the record...motorcycle crash helmets should be removed immediately prior to entering any store or PFS internal shop area. Acces to store is denied to anyone refusing to remove their crash helmet!

@alf
" if face masks were mandatory, it would be a different matter"
That was my query regarding religious face coverings. Are all age restricted items refused to these female customers?? Twould seem from the think 25 update, that this be the case ???

By mandatory I mean legally required, I believe face masks were required for some public transport for example. Though on a related note I do wish face masks were required for access to shops, but that’s a different topic.

Other face masks religious or not, are not legally mandatory, they are simply by choice and the age restricted sales policy still applies. If you cannot assess the age The sale does not continue.

Now I get the controversial nature, but as far as I know there’s no set policy for dealing with burqas or similar as I figure they are fortunately rare occurrences. And to be blunt I would rather Tesco didn’t pander to such a backwards practice.

Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: MysteryTurkey on 30-06-20, 02:29PM
Quote from: beentheredoneit on 27-06-20, 12:41PM
.... we had a pair of pro shoplifters in the other day (£150 JD and Smirnoff) definitely using masks and gloves to hide their identities .....

In our store not even kidding we had 3 Eastern European come in and steal 2k worth of alcohol. They were seen detagging near customers on CCTV.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: gomezz on 30-06-20, 03:39PM
If it is not in Dave's weekly email then it is not something I need to know.

Mind you, much of what *is* in his emails I do not need to know.   ;D
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Redshoes on 01-07-20, 07:13AM
Message was put out on the weekly dept news. There used to be services and checkout newsletters but they are now combined. We have a folder for the newsletters and other dept briefs. They are also available on the help centre via comms.
There is still team 5 but managers are no longer assessed on if this is delivered or not. It does not come out weekly and is also displayed online. You can see the company message online but you won't get the store or dept message online.
In regards to think 25 and face coverings. If worn for religious reasons, in a lot of cases it is also against the religion to drink alcohol. There would still be restriction on things like knives for example and is still required. The government brief is that enforced removal of face coverings should only be for security reasons at border control for example. In other places is is treated same as someone who does not have ID with them. It is simply a matter of proving age, if customer is not clearly of age they need to produce ID that needs to be checked. If they can't do this the sale should be politely refused.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 01-07-20, 12:54PM
Quote from: alf on 30-06-20, 01:22PM
Quote from: lucgeo on 30-06-20, 06:24AM
And for the record...motorcycle crash helmets should be removed immediately prior to entering any store or PFS internal shop area. Acces to store is denied to anyone refusing to remove their crash helmet!

@alf
" if face masks were mandatory, it would be a different matter"
That was my query regarding religious face coverings. Are all age restricted items refused to these female customers?? Twould seem from the think 25 update, that this be the case ???

By mandatory I mean legally required, I believe face masks were required for some public transport for example. Though on a related note I do wish face masks were required for access to shops, but that’s a different topic.

Other face masks religious or not, are not legally mandatory, they are simply by choice and the age restricted sales policy still applies. If you cannot assess the age The sale does not continue.

Now I get the controversial nature, but as far as I know there’s no set policy for dealing with burqas or similar as I figure they are fortunately rare occurrences. And to be blunt I would rather Tesco didn’t pander to such a backwards practice.

It depends on the religious clothing headpiece and religion, it's religious discrimination to refuse service because the customer refuses to remove a religious article of clothing, (exception being full burqas and niqabs and only for ID purposes or other scenarios where it's law to identify a person by their age) however most of these religions prohibit the followers from consuming things such as alcohol, so the scenario where they would buy alcohol happens very rarely, less so with other age restricted products.

Most places adopt the same rules as used by the DVLA/DSA and the passport agency, so it's unacceptable to ask someone to remove their turban or other religious head piece as long as it doesn't  cover the outline of the eyes, nose or mouth.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-07-20, 01:58PM
Quote from: NightAndDay on 01-07-20, 12:54PM
Quote from: alf on 30-06-20, 01:22PM
Quote from: lucgeo on 30-06-20, 06:24AM
And for the record...motorcycle crash helmets should be removed immediately prior to entering any store or PFS internal shop area. Acces to store is denied to anyone refusing to remove their crash helmet!

@alf
" if face masks were mandatory, it would be a different matter"
That was my query regarding religious face coverings. Are all age restricted items refused to these female customers?? Twould seem from the think 25 update, that this be the case ???

By mandatory I mean legally required, I believe face masks were required for some public transport for example. Though on a related note I do wish face masks were required for access to shops, but that’s a different topic.

Other face masks religious or not, are not legally mandatory, they are simply by choice and the age restricted sales policy still applies. If you cannot assess the age The sale does not continue.

Now I get the controversial nature, but as far as I know there’s no set policy for dealing with burqas or similar as I figure they are fortunately rare occurrences. And to be blunt I would rather Tesco didn’t pander to such a backwards practice.

It depends on the religious clothing headpiece and religion, it's religious discrimination to refuse service because the customer refuses to remove a religious article of clothing, (exception being full burqas and niqabs and only for ID purposes or other scenarios where it's law to identify a person by their age) however most of these religions prohibit the followers from consuming things such as alcohol, so the scenario where they would buy alcohol happens very rarely, less so with other age restricted products.

Topic of thread “think 25 and face masks”

Read the thread dude, any mention of religion has been in the context of face masks/face coverings in regards to age restricted sales.



Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: tempworker2020 on 05-07-20, 04:18AM
Challange 25 has always been a difficult one setting aside the religious side of things which has been already discussed. My approach has always been 'Can you remove the mask for a second while I check your ID'.  Normally there is no opposition but this can be challenged if that happens I would call team support and leave it up to them. 
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: gomezz on 05-07-20, 11:17AM
Surely the mask may be removed for a few seconds while both customer and cashier hold their breath which has the same effect of stopping aerosol spray of breath?
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: OH on 05-07-20, 07:37PM
If / when wearing face masks in shops becomes mandatory
https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/supermarkets/face-masks-to-be-mandatory-in-shops-in-scotland-from-next-week/646029.article

Customers will be prevented by law from removing masks.

Think 25 is going to stop an enormous amount of alcohol sales!
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: notsofunny on 05-07-20, 08:01PM

Well if this does stop sales in stores , Everyone will be able to go to pubs since no face covering rules seem to apply in them  ???

Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: OH on 05-07-20, 08:10PM
Drinking through a mask spoils the taste a bit! ;D
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Fun girl on 29-08-20, 12:56AM
Hi I work on self-service, failed a test purchase the guy was 20 but it went to disciplinary and I was given a final warning.  We're told not to go to till and we have to clear age restrictions on a monitor, and that's what I did.  a have to stop assess ask check from a monitor and when you think 25 from a distance and get it wrong this what happens.  Worked with them for 24 years first time with any warning or even a lets talk and it goes to final warning, don't know if a should appeal.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: oldfashionedplayer on 29-08-20, 02:21AM
you should appeal as a final shouldn't be given for that.. unless theres other occasions in a recent time that you've been in for...  ???

if your not sure at a distance ask to lower mask etc, always be sure with it...
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: lucgeo on 29-08-20, 07:37AM
Oh here we go again...a final warning for a NON underage restricted sale  :-X

From a recent update on policy....‘If a customer wearing a face covering is buying an age restricted product, we shouldn’t ask them to remove their coverings for Think 25 identification purposes.

So you have been told to use the monitor for restricted sale verification...the guy is wearing a mask...you PERCEIVED him to be of legal age...he was of legal age...what's the problem  ???

What's the alternative? Shout to the guy from a distance to remove his mask, embarrassing him in front of all the other customers, and then what ? Does he have to slide his ID across the 2m distancing to verify his age, and then you slide it back ??? Or are you expected to get up close to inspect it, with his mask off  ???

APPEAL....APPEAL....APPEAL   >:(

Hmmm...24 years service with a squeaky clean slate ???  Methinks the long service cleansing is doing the rounds again :-X
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 29-08-20, 10:37AM
Quote from: Fun girl on 29-08-20, 12:56AM
Hi I work on self-service, failed a test purchase the guy was 20 but it went to disciplinary and I was given a final warning.  We're told not to go to till and we have to clear age restrictions on a monitor, and that's what I did.  a have to stop assess ask check from a monitor and when you think 25 from a distance and get it wrong this what happens.  Worked with them for 24 years first time with any warning or even a lets talk and it goes to final warning, don't know if a should appeal.

Appeal and get ACAS involved, they specialise in employer-employee reconcilliation and will help you go to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal if they get involved. 25 years service will factor heavily in an unfair dismissal claim, 6 figure payouts wouldn't be surprising.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Bigbadbob on 30-08-20, 11:11AM
What can the outcome of a disciplinary meeting be for failing a "Think 25 policy" My sister failed one last Wednesday 26th August to a mystery shopper by selling one tin of cider. The mystery shopper was masked, but was asked for ID. As she had no ID my sister asked for age and D.O.B.  My sister has 17 years service and is now worried over this slip up. Investigation was held on Friday. Now it is a disciplinary on Thursday. Any idea's from anyone ??  Thanks
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: dotnochance on 30-08-20, 11:55AM
The mystery shopper was masked, but was asked for ID. As she had no ID my sister asked for age and D.O.B.
Yeah no offence but your sisters not looking good right now, Tesco treats alcohol ID extremely serious especially from a mystery shopper, I would advise her to get a rep, in my store failing mystery shopper alcohol ID has always been a finale written warning, might be different in her store though
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: amex on 30-08-20, 12:09PM
That’s what they do now, when you ask for ID, they say they have none. That’s what happened to me last time we were tested, I refused and kept the alcohol.  So we passed.  But this month my team leader failed because the guy had a mask on and he misjudged his age and didn’t ask for ID. 
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: lucgeo on 30-08-20, 12:19PM
I'm really having a problem with this final warning stance  ???

If the mystery customer is of legal age to purchase an age restricted product, then regardless of whether ID was produced, no law has been broken. The colleague has perceived the customer to be of legal age, so felt no need to ask for ID. For management to give any disciplinary based on ones perception of a person's age is nonsensical.

With regard to asking for ID, but non produced, it suggests it was perceived the customer was underage, to then let the sale proceed based only on a verbal D.O.B. clarification was bad judgement. Hopefully the customer was of legal age, if not, a final warning would be the best to be hoped for.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Bigbadbob on 30-08-20, 01:17PM
ID was not asked for by the assistant, but age and DOB was asked for. The assistant thought the customer (mystery shopper) as well over the age of 18, even with a face mask on.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 30-08-20, 02:28PM
Quote from: lucgeo on 30-08-20, 12:19PM
I'm really having a problem with this final warning stance  ???

If the mystery customer is of legal age to purchase an age restricted product, then regardless of whether ID was produced, no law has been broken. The colleague has perceived the customer to be of legal age, so felt no need to ask for ID. For management to give any disciplinary based on ones perception of a person's age is nonsensical.

With regard to asking for ID, but non produced, it suggests it was perceived the customer was underage, to then let the sale proceed based only on a verbal D.O.B. clarification was bad judgement. Hopefully the customer was of legal age, if not, a final warning would be the best to be hoped for.

To add, the think 25 policy wasn't adapted when the new legislation to wear face masks in-store was introduced, an employee can't reasonably assess a persons age when a face covering takes up 40-50% of a customers face. If they did get fired for it, a judge would also deem it unreasonable in an unfair dismissal lawsuit, ACAS has a duty to be impartial and resolve employer-employee disputes, if the appeal does fail, talk to ACAS about raising a grievance with what has transpired, Tescos managers should know better than to haphazardly dish out final written warnings, ACAS would "gently" remind them of this.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Morris999 on 30-08-20, 06:29PM
The mystery shoppers they send in for test purchases while over 18 years old will look young, and will definitely not look over 25!
They are testing to see if the colleague asks for ID and then refuses the sale when they do not present any.
It is easy to spot a potential test purchase sale, they will always try and buy a single bottle/can or other age restricted item Costing a few £’s normally with a few other cheap items, and in my experience are always on their own.

Remember the Policy is Think 25 not is the customer over 18.
A clear distinction that gets lost in the failed test purchases.

As for the policy around ID and face coverings this has been covered on here afew times over the past few months and the current policy is

That the colleague can ask the customer to remove their face coverings so they can asses the customers age, if the customer refuses then the colleague is to politely refuse the sale.

The above has always been the policy for face coverings and Think 25 of any type.
It was only temporary suspended with government advice for a few months but was reinstated end of June/ Beginning of July.

There is absolutely no reason not to ask the customer to temporarily remove their face coverings whether on self-service or any other checkout.
Just because the colleague can now authorise at the self-serve terminal doesn’t mean they cannot follow the Think 25 process.
We could argue all day about whether it justifies a final warning or not, but all I’ll say is this, you best be on the look out for the next test purchase as they will be back in numerous times very soon now the store has failed one!

As for the colleague that asked for ID and then preceded with the sale anyway when the customer didn’t have any, you’ll be best just to accept whatever warning they give you and learn from the experience and never do it again.
If that was the Police or Trading Standards you’ll be looking at a criminal record and out of a job.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 30-08-20, 07:10PM
As the legislation on face coverings was only recently implemented, I very much doubt Tesco has updated their training on the think 25 policy with this addendum, the think 25 policy would be mandatory legal elearning training that the Store Manager would have to get everyone to do, if the OP didn't do the training with the updates on the face mask legislation, they can't be disciplined as they haven't received training on it.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: barafear on 30-08-20, 07:18PM
OK. I know 25 minus 18 equals 7......but does that mean its that easy to tell the difference. If you fail to ask for ID that is because you have assessed they look over 25. If they turn out to " look under 25" in someone else's opinion ( either the tester or Tesco management) who is to say who is right. I served someone buying a £39 bottle of gin. I looked at her and thought she could be in her early 20s but buying such expensive alcohol  made me assume older.....as I handed her the gin I noticed she had her driving licence ready to show me....so I checked....,she was 21. As someone else said, not illegal but not following Tesco policies  ( if I hadn't checked). But still a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Nomad on 30-08-20, 08:37PM
Quote from: Morris999 on 30-08-20, 06:29PM

If that was the Police or Trading Standards you’ll be looking at a criminal record and out of a job.
If they were 18 or over the Police or Trading Standards would not be interested in the slightest.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Morris999 on 30-08-20, 10:48PM
Quote from: NightAndDay on 30-08-20, 07:10PM
As the legislation on face coverings was only recently implemented, I very much doubt Tesco has updated their training on the think 25 policy with this addendum, the think 25 policy would be mandatory legal elearning training that the Store Manager would have to get everyone to do, if the OP didn't do the training with the updates on the face mask legislation, they can't be disciplined as they haven't received training on it.

Training doesn’t need updating as the legislation hasn’t changed, it was a temporary measure that has now ended, so normal Think 25 training is in effect, so if the colleague cannot assess the age of the customer due to a face covering, whether that be a crash helmet, religious covering or face mask then they are to ask the customer to remove it temporarily, if the customer refuses then the colleague is to refuse the sale.
That’s how it was before March and how it is now.

@barafear so in your own words you thought she looked under 25 but served her anyway, well in that case you failed to follow the Think 25 policy.
Regardless of your reasoning about the expense bottle of alcohol, you still served her even after you assessed her to look under 25.

@Nomad I don’t know if you missed the point completely or just decided to ignore it.
We both know that if the Police or Trading Standards did a test purchase it would be someone under 18, and if the colleague asked for ID, none was presented and the colleague still authorised the sale, then yes they would potentially be facing a criminal record and lose of job, does that make it clearer for you.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: whatajoke2019 on 30-08-20, 11:12PM
I won't go into detail as it'll make me personally identifiable but there was on occasion I was at work and an ex-colleague of mine failed to 'Think 25'. Couldn't work on the till for the rest of their shift, had to go through all of the training again and had the disciplinary put on file.

Some people are very lucky with their genetics; I once served a girl and asked her for ID. She was nearly 30 but looking at her you wouldn't have known it.

Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: lucgeo on 31-08-20, 09:20AM
You can't TRAIN anybody to correctly asses a person's age...it's down to that individual's ability to be able to gauge whether the customer is of legal age, and that is the point here...LEGAL AGE. In the eyes of the law, the legal age is 18, so colleagues who have served a customer of legal age, have not committed any offence, yet Tesco managers feel justified in disciplining a NON wrongdoing, to the point of threatening a person's job security and livelihood!

There are many different examples of individual's personal perception. Some see the coloured dots...some don't...some see the face, others see the vase...the two coloured trainer...I see pink and white, other half sees green and grey...Who's right ???

Who decided that the mystery shopper looked younger than 25? That person's perception of age recognition and the colleagues cannot be compared, nor the colleague disciplined for having a different perspective. All the training manuals in the world can't dictate a right or wrong in personal perception, only the selling of goods to underage customers becomes a disciplinary matter, as it's illegal, and this is where it all comes into play...Tesco and the SM fear losing their liquor licence!

Until training, states that ALL customers should be asked for ID for age restricted sales, and put in every contract for each colleague to sign in agreement, then no disciplinary can be decided on a perception. It is clearly a case of Conduct V's Capability.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Redshoes on 31-08-20, 10:24AM
The main points are that colleague asked, no ID was produced but sale was allowed. Colleague asked for ID so knew it was required. The mask part is irrelevant. At no point in the training does it ask us to ask a persons date of birth and then allow sale.
Checkouts have had enough training, briefs on how to deal with masks. The 17 years experience goes against the colleague rather than for them. After 17 years they should know the what is allowed. They have done the refresher training twice a year for 17 years. If they had been a new start and had only done induction there might be a margin of error as nobody remembers everything from training.
Of all the test purchases it is the least serious to fail an internal mystery shopper.
It's not easy with masks, I grant that. Mistakes can happen as we are human, I get that  I'm just saying that saying experienced colleague won't help.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Nomad on 31-08-20, 10:35AM
Quote from: Morris999 on 30-08-20, 06:29PM
The mystery shoppers they send in for test purchases while over 18 years old will look young, and will definitely not look over 25!

Morris999, failure on your part to explain who "they" referred to, plus the declaration that the mystery shopper will be over 18 assisted the confusion.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 31-08-20, 03:15PM
Quote from: Morris999 on 30-08-20, 10:48PM
Quote from: NightAndDay on 30-08-20, 07:10PM
As the legislation on face coverings was only recently implemented, I very much doubt Tesco has updated their training on the think 25 policy with this addendum, the think 25 policy would be mandatory legal elearning training that the Store Manager would have to get everyone to do, if the OP didn't do the training with the updates on the face mask legislation, they can't be disciplined as they haven't received training on it.

Training doesn’t need updating as the legislation hasn’t changed, it was a temporary measure that has now ended, so normal Think 25 training is in effect, so if the colleague cannot assess the age of the customer due to a face covering, whether that be a crash helmet, religious covering or face mask then they are to ask the customer to remove it temporarily, if the customer refuses then the colleague is to refuse the sale.
That’s how it was before March and how it is now.

@barafear so in your own words you thought she looked under 25 but served her anyway, well in that case you failed to follow the Think 25 policy.
Regardless of your reasoning about the expense bottle of alcohol, you still served her even after you assessed her to look under 25.

@Nomad I don’t know if you missed the point completely or just decided to ignore it.
We both know that if the Police or Trading Standards did a test purchase it would be someone under 18, and if the colleague asked for ID, none was presented and the colleague still authorised the sale, then yes they would potentially be facing a criminal record and lose of job, does that make it clearer for you.

Legislation is still in place that a facemask should be worn in a retail environment, just because it isn't enforced (policy at the moment is to get the police to enforce the law) doesn't mean it's not the law, and as such makes a material change to the process of determining the age of the customer. Training needs to incorporate the process to ask customers to remove face mask coverings in light of the covid pandemic and should not be covered by current policies on religious headwear and face coverings as they're mutually exclusive and it's a reasonable assumption that asking customers to remove their facemask could be against the law (at the very least can confuse the employee) . If it isn't incorporated, employees can't be classed as "trained" on how to deal with the now common place scenario and as such can't be disciplined.

For more info https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own



Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 31-08-20, 04:21PM
You chat some utter s**t at times.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Nomad on 31-08-20, 09:31PM
Unless exempt for a medical reason customers are required by law to wear a face mask while in retail premises, as there appears to be no mention in the law of circumstances which allow temporary removal for any purpose asking somebody to do so is incitement to break the law.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 31-08-20, 10:43PM
Thank you Nomad
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 31-08-20, 10:45PM
"if asked to do so by shop staff or relevant employees for identification, for assessing health recommendations (e.g. by a pharmacist), or for age identification purposes including when buying age restricted products such as alcohol"
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: penguin on 31-08-20, 11:03PM
Quote from: Nomad on 31-08-20, 09:31PM
Unless exempt for a medical reason customers are required by law to wear a face mask while in retail premises, as there appears to be no mention in the law of circumstances which allow temporary removal for any purpose asking somebody to do so is incitement to break the law.

A fair point, but then the law also says someone operating a till has to ensure nobody buys an item when underage, short of refusing to sell anything with an age restriction one is going to be either breaking the law on restricted sales or face coverings, set up to fail springs to mind.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Nomad on 01-09-20, 10:27AM
alf, where is that quote from ? link if possible please.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 01-09-20, 10:53AM
Quote from: lucgeo on 31-08-20, 09:20AM
You can't TRAIN anybody to correctly asses a person's age...it's down to that individual's ability to be able to gauge whether the customer is of legal age, and that is the point here...LEGAL AGE. In the eyes of the law, the legal age is 18, so colleagues who have served a customer of legal age, have not committed any offence, yet Tesco managers feel justified in disciplining a NON wrongdoing, to the point of threatening a person's job security and livelihood!

There are many different examples of individual's personal perception. Some see the coloured dots...some don't...some see the face, others see the vase...the two coloured trainer...I see pink and white, other half sees green and grey...Who's right ???

Who decided that the mystery shopper looked younger than 25? That person's perception of age recognition and the colleagues cannot be compared, nor the colleague disciplined for having a different perspective. All the training manuals in the world can't dictate a right or wrong in personal perception, only the selling of goods to underage customers becomes a disciplinary matter, as it's illegal, and this is where it all comes into play...Tesco and the SM fear losing their liquor licence!

Until training, states that ALL customers should be asked for ID for age restricted sales, and put in every contract for each colleague to sign in agreement, then no disciplinary can be decided on a perception. It is clearly a case of Conduct V's Capability.

While you can't train anybody for this, there is a legal think 25 training that all employees have to complete, regardless of its inefficacy in improving age perception , if the training hasn't been completed then an employee can't be disciplined for failing the think 25 test purchase as they haven't been trained which would be evident by the employees E-learning module status.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-09-20, 11:57AM
Quote from: Nomad on 01-09-20, 10:27AM
alf, where is that quote from ? link if possible please.

From the link night and day posted, which I find pretty hilarious.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 01-09-20, 12:39PM
The point is it has to be in Tescos think 25 training as well in order for colleagues to be able to be disciplined for that scenario, if it isn't then it's unreasonable to discipline because they wouldn't know the process.

My link was to refute the statement that legislation hasn't changed since March and that it was a temporary measure. The link shows this to be categorically false.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-09-20, 01:01PM
That why you thanked nomad and after he made a incorrect statement ayeeee.

Save your verysmart routine for some other time, but maybe actually read the s*** you post before waffling.

Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 01-09-20, 01:10PM
Shut your corporate ..............................................

[admin]Out of order. Do not repeat. Nomad[/admin]
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-09-20, 01:15PM
But regardless of all this waffling, it’s very simple.

Employees are to think 25, and carry out the age restricted sales training they received (the stop access etc) Where needed.

If it cannot be conducted due to a face covering, either the sale does not continue or the covering is removed the steps are followed accordingly.

The change in legalisation makes no difference as the link nightandday kindly posted, highlights the exemption for age restricted sales and similar.

In short in terms of age restricted sales, nothing has changed.

Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-09-20, 01:16PM
Quote from: NightAndDay on 01-09-20, 01:10PM
Shut your corporate ..........................................................................

Brilliant, made my f****ng day that.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 01-09-20, 01:37PM
Except the introduction of the legislation does change the process,  due to the simple fact that asking them to remove their face mask to the unknowing employee could cause them to think they are breaking the law regarding the new legislation. The training would need to address this.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-09-20, 02:03PM
f*** you sprout some nonsense, training doesn’t need to address every possible incorrect  thought a employee could have.


If a employee takes it upon themselves to not follow provided training, because they think They know better, the consequences are on them.

Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 01-09-20, 02:09PM
It is now the norm to serve customers who wear facemasks in a retail setting because of the covid pandemic and legislation, I would actually think it common sense to have covid legislation awareness put in to the existing think 25 training saying that it is still policy and allowed by law to ask customers to remove their facemasks in order to verify their age, at the end of the day however, it is the judge who decides whether the training given is reasonable enough that the employee should know better, most sensible people would see no mentioning of the new normal in the training as not being sufficient.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-09-20, 02:47PM
This is all utter nonsense, training doesn’t need to be updated where no change has occurred.

But by all means continue the baseless speculation. Better yet, anyone reading this, ignore the training and process as many age restricted Sales as possible where the customer is wearing a face mask.

And when you’re eventually sacked, take Tesco through the employee tribunal and get that 6 figure payout this donut alluded to.


Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 01-09-20, 03:17PM
I would humbly suggest that change has indeed occurred, namely, the vast majority of customers now wear facemasks due to legislative changes compared with the pre-covid times, previous think 25 face mask training didn't take into account the new legislation, it only took into account religion and casual wear as well as the fact that it only applied to the vast minority of cases unlike today.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-09-20, 03:45PM
The occurrence of face coverings is of no concern, I’m also fairly sure training does not even mention face coverings religious or otherwise, not 100% sure on that though.

The training is more encompassing it doesn’t focus on specific occurrences. you stop and access (think 25), ask for ID If they appear under 25, and follow the standard guidance and either process or refuse.

A point people are missing, even if for some reason an employee thought they couldn’t ask a customer to remove their covering, the default action is too then refuse the sale, not to process it.

If you feel any disciplinary action resulting from the employee ignoring their training is  unreasonable for whatever reason, cultural changes included, that is your prerogative.


Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 01-09-20, 04:16PM
It's not the occurence, it's the reason why, you can't have a law saying that facemasks must be warn inside a premises and the training saying to ask customers to remove their facemasks with no reference to the new legislations bylaws.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-09-20, 05:40PM

Why on earth would you reference an exemption, the entire point of the exemptions is that they are, well, exempt from the change.

You're intent on complicating a simple matter, to which  you've fabricated this made up situation involving a  made up strawman of an employee, who for some made up reason feels they legally can't ask a customer to remove a covering for age verification. Further more your made up employee is so incompetent that they decide to defy not only training but logic itself, and process the sale regardless.

Hell I'd point out the post by "Fun girl " that revived this topic made no mention of masks or coverings, there was another later post by "Bigbadbob", but that can be sumarised as a simple f*** up on the employees part.

It's a silly situation that bares no similarity to reality, face masks have been mandatory for a month now and tesco among other retailers have sold millions (rough guess) of age retricted items, and unless my store is an utopian exception checkout operators are managing fine.

Honestly you're so obsessed with waffling on about the employee tribunal, that you're making up reasons to get them involved. I mean christ the post by "Fun girl" literally states they recieved a final warning, and you jump in telling them to get the ET involved for unfair dismissal, like what.



Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Nomad on 01-09-20, 06:01PM
Thank you alf, I stand corrected ref: mask removal for identification.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: alf on 01-09-20, 06:16PM
No problem, I'd also point out there is also a general reasonable excuse type clause for mask removal, probably not an issue given how lax the enforcment is, but it is there.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 01-09-20, 07:06PM
The arguement stems from the the fact that an employee can't be disciplined if they haven't received the relevant training, I have been informed by a Store Manager in Express that there are think 25 posters in store which do say to remove the face mask if asked for age verification purposes highlighting the covid pandemic, in which case makes this whole arguement a moot point.

Though to complicate the issue even more https://www.betterretailing.com/news/tesco-bans-staff-from-asking-customers-to-remove-face-coverings-to-verify-age/ 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: gomezz on 01-09-20, 09:01PM
Could face recognition technology, while known to be wildly inaccurate for identifying individuals, be trained to indicate a degree of certainty that the perceived age of someone is either above or below 25 and prompt the cashier to ask for ID if needed?   Would remove the need for subjective judgement by the cashier which is impossible to gain-say in practise.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: dotnochance on 01-09-20, 09:46PM
Why would Tesco spend hundreds of millions on that kind of system?? Pointless
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: penguin on 01-09-20, 10:46PM
Not only that but people will over rule it, I could not care less what any system thinks if I'm on a till its my head on the line if I sell to someone under age so will still ask and refuse as I see fit.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Redshoes on 03-09-20, 03:56AM
Legal training begins again next week. We do think 25 training twice a year, year in and year out. Even those who work in areas that prevent them going on a till do this training. It is what it is but as far as masks go the brief says we can ask customers to remove masks to verify ID if needed, a customer can refuse but if we do so we politely refuse the alcohol. It's that simple.
Going back to the colleague who did not follow the think 25 policy. It was stated that they had 17 years service so that's 17 years of doing Age restricted sale training twice a year. The colleague just asked the mystery shopper their birthday and then allowed the sale. The mask part is irrelevant, they did not have ID, it was asked for but sale was allowed on very a very flimsy basis that has never been accepted.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: lucgeo on 03-09-20, 07:04AM
Can I ask if the training around think 25 has been tweaked at all regarding removal of masks on the self serve?
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: NightAndDay on 03-09-20, 10:24AM
Quote from: Redshoes on 03-09-20, 03:56AM
Legal training begins again next week. We do think 25 training twice a year, year in and year out. Even those who work in areas that prevent them going on a till do this training. It is what it is but as far as masks go the brief says we can ask customers to remove masks to verify ID if needed, a customer can refuse but if we do so we politely refuse the alcohol. It's that simple.
Going back to the colleague who did not follow the think 25 policy. It was stated that they had 17 years service so that's 17 years of doing Age restricted sale training twice a year. The colleague just asked the mystery shopper their birthday and then allowed the sale. The mask part is irrelevant, they did not have ID, it was asked for but sale was allowed on very a very flimsy basis that has never been accepted.

There are think 25 posters in Express stores highlighting the fact that staff can ask customers to remove their face masks for age verification purposes with reference to the covid pandemic legislation, whether this is in the training or not is now not as big a deal as this part of the process is displayed in store where everybody can see.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Jc on 02-03-21, 02:53PM
New to this line of work and terrified I’d get caught out ! The masks leave it a lot harder to judge
What do test purchasers generally buy?
I presume more cider or vodka? Or would they every use the likes. Of  processo?
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: londoner83 on 02-03-21, 02:58PM
They could potentially buy any age restricted product sold in store.
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Jc on 02-03-21, 04:14PM
Thank you
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: Welshie on 02-03-21, 08:07PM
New legal refresher '21training  is now online and does go over asking someone to briefly remove mask for age restricted sales .
Title: Re: Think 25 and facemasks
Post by: forrestgimp on 03-03-21, 02:19PM
The issue I have always had with think 25 is the implementation. The say and the training manual states use your own judgement and if YOU believe someone looks under 25 do the whole routine.

Fair enough you might think until you are dragged in for a meeting because you made a mistake.

M.....That person was under 25 why didnt you ID them?

CA....Because I thought they looked older

M...Not good enough they look younger to me have a refresher course make another mistake and it couold go further.

So either we use our own judgement, ask everyone who shops for ID or ask the manager to approve every transaction because as it stands they are setting us up to fail every single time.