verylittlehelps

I foresee £12.02 per hour base rate from April with sunday premium dropping from £1.87 to 87p per hour. I'd be surprised if sunday premium still exists by end of quarter 2 of 2025. These are my own speculations, i have no evidence to back them up so a pinch of salt is required.

When I was growing up in the 70's nothing opened on a Sunday, so when Sunday trading started stores offered double time to get people to work as shifts were a struggle to feel....

However anyone born since 2000 treats Sunday as just another day and as such don't see it as special. I doubt any store would have issues recruiting Sunday only colleagues now.

Bottom line is why pay a premium to existing staff when the business could easily hire new staff to do the same role at less cost?

Sunday premium will be going....the only question is when

Quote from: Duff McKagan on 15-01-24, 08:24PMI foresee £12.02 per hour base rate from April with sunday premium dropping from £1.87 to 87p per hour. I'd be surprised if sunday premium still exists by end of quarter 2 of 2025. These are my own speculations, i have no evidence to back them up so a pinch of salt is required.

I personally think they could cut the sunday premium to 10% which would be about an extra £1.20ph this is obviously still a cut in sunday pay but may be the fairest outcome as opposed to removing completely.

I don't think they will remove sunday premium completely this year, I wouldn't put it past them though...but by summer 2025 I can see it being gone.

With the governments long term strategy of getting the national living wage to 2/3 of median pay by 2030 (I believe), we're going to see not insignificant increases to the national living wage to that point, especially if the deglobalization trend continues and results in periods of historically high inflation.

What this results in is increased overheads for businesses through labour costs, stiff competition and regulatory oversight means they're limited in how much they can pass off the costs to the customer, meaning to secure their profitability they have to operate more efficiently (i.e AI and automation of routine admin and more structure changes to accommodate these changes) and careful strategising around employee remuneration.

Tesco is the only Retailer that still pays a Sunday premium, but the past 8 years of wage inflation has made it increasingly economically unviable. The macroeconomic landscape will diminish any variation in compensation that existed before.

In essence because floor wages are going to be kept artificially high by government mandate, to maintain profitability, we're going to see a more uniform approach across the whole market segment, the competition will become more and more alike over the next 6 years.

Quote from: barafear on 15-01-24, 05:04PMOther than "freezing" the "cash amount" (and hence reducing the % uplift) of Sunday premiums last year -how else have the company "indicated" that Sunday premium is going?

By dropping it last year from 25% to 17%. It seems pretty unilkely that it was the only reduction we'll see and there was no communication at the time to rule out futher decreases in the percentage.

Quote from: Prince of Darkness on 17-01-24, 02:58PM

Quote from: barafear on 15-01-24, 05:04PMOther than "freezing" the "cash amount" (and hence reducing the % uplift) of Sunday premiums last year -how else have the company "indicated" that Sunday premium is going?

By dropping it last year from 25% to 17%. It seems pretty unilkely that it was the only reduction we'll see and there was no communication at the time to rule out futher decreases in the percentage.

I agree that reading between the lines that it is highly likely that Sunday premium is "on its last legs" - and clearly not paying it to new starters as well is an indication of sorts that it is "going" - but Tesco have not categorically stated it is going.

As I say - I'm in agreement with most on here that it will go very soon - I'm just not sure it has been "clearly indicated"

Quote from: NightAndDay on 16-01-24, 08:29PMWith the governments long term strategy of getting the national living wage to 2/3 of median pay by 2030 (I believe), we're going to see not insignificant increases to the national living wage to that point, especially if the deglobalization trend continues and results in periods of historically high inflation.

What this results in is increased overheads for businesses through labour costs, stiff competition and regulatory oversight means they're limited in how much they can pass off the costs to the customer, meaning to secure their profitability they have to operate more efficiently (i.e AI and automation of routine admin and more structure changes to accommodate these changes) and careful strategising around employee remuneration.

Tesco is the only Retailer that still pays a Sunday premium, but the past 8 years of wage inflation has made it increasingly economically unviable. The macroeconomic landscape will diminish any variation in compensation that existed before.

In essence because floor wages are going to be kept artificially high by government mandate, to maintain profitability, we're going to see a more uniform approach across the whole market segment, the competition will become more and more alike over the next 6 years.

As usual - a well thought out and structured post. However, just a little point about the date of the "Government's desire to get NLW to 2/3rd of median pay" - you mention 2030 in your post - whereas I believe the date is in fact where we are now - 2024.

"This is typically done by calculating the minimum wage as a proportion of median earnings – the point at which half of people earn more and half of people earn less. The Government reached its target of the NLW reaching a value of 60% of median earnings by 2020 and is expected to reach a value of 66% by 2024.27 Nov 2023"

Above is from UK Parliament website.

So we're here now - so presumably unless there's a new target then it will be "kept" at 2/3rd of median pay - so in theory, the % increase in NLW each year should more or less match the ongoing "wage inflation" figure - the latest figure I believe was 6.6% - obviously we are around 10 months away from the new announcement in relation to NLW (i.e. what the NLW will be from April 2025) - so the "wage inflation" figure could change - I guess it's expected to fall - given that general inflation is falling - therefore there should not be significant demand from workers for "high" pay rises. Then again - there are a number of "striking workers" currently - so if their demands for high rises are met - then maybe wage inflation for 2024/25 will remain higher than "normal inflation/CPI" - and then we can expect that the NLW for April 2025 might be around 7% higher than the rate just announced for 2024 - i.e. £11.44 becomes around £12.22

Quote from: londoner83 on 16-01-24, 08:09AMWhen I was growing up in the 70's nothing opened on a Sunday, so when Sunday trading started stores offered double time to get people to work as shifts were a struggle to feel....

However anyone born since 2000 treats Sunday as just another day and as such don't see it as special. I doubt any store would have issues recruiting Sunday only colleagues now.

Bottom line is why pay a premium to existing staff when the business could easily hire new staff to do the same role at less cost?

Sunday premium will be going....the only question is when

I have to agree fully here. Sunday premium is not, and has not been a thing in the sector and many others for a number of years now.

While I feel sorry for those impacted the most, eg those contracted full shifts or drivers contracted 9/10 hours, we have to be realistic and accept it will happen and it's keeping with the market, in the same way we expect the pay announcement to keep with the market and match Sainsbury's etc.

This company will never do more than they have to no matter what they say

Quote from: barafear on 19-01-24, 02:01PMI agree that reading between the lines that it is highly likely that Sunday premium is "on its last legs" - and clearly not paying it to new starters as well is an indication of sorts that it is "going" - but Tesco have not categorically stated it is going.

As I say - I'm in agreement with most on here that it will go very soon - I'm just not sure it has been "clearly indicated"

Typical for the business though - playing cards close to their chest as always. 

Quote from: ExSMfloor on 22-01-24, 07:32AM

Quote from: londoner83 on 16-01-24, 08:09AMWhen I was growing up in the 70's nothing opened on a Sunday, so when Sunday trading started stores offered double time to get people to work as shifts were a struggle to feel....

However anyone born since 2000 treats Sunday as just another day and as such don't see it as special. I doubt any store would have issues recruiting Sunday only colleagues now.

Bottom line is why pay a premium to existing staff when the business could easily hire new staff to do the same role at less cost?

Sunday premium will be going....the only question is when

I have to agree fully here. Sunday premium is not, and has not been a thing in the sector and many others for a number of years now.

While I feel sorry for those impacted the most, eg those contracted full shifts or drivers contracted 9/10 hours, we have to be realistic and accept it will happen and it's keeping with the market, in the same way we expect the pay announcement to keep with the market and match Sainsbury's etc.

This company will never do more than they have to no matter what they say

Still a "thing" in the taxi industry (well certainly the price the customer pays) as an example.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/taxi-fares/tariffs

Isnt extra for weekends a thing for govt bodies still?the same government that sets nlw,cant wait to drop saturday nights if sunday premium goes

Quote from: barafear on 22-01-24, 02:19PM

Quote from: ExSMfloor on 22-01-24, 07:32AM

Quote from: londoner83 on 16-01-24, 08:09AMWhen I was growing up in the 70's nothing opened on a Sunday, so when Sunday trading started stores offered double time to get people to work as shifts were a struggle to feel....

However anyone born since 2000 treats Sunday as just another day and as such don't see it as special. I doubt any store would have issues recruiting Sunday only colleagues now.

Bottom line is why pay a premium to existing staff when the business could easily hire new staff to do the same role at less cost?

Sunday premium will be going....the only question is when

I have to agree fully here. Sunday premium is not, and has not been a thing in the sector and many others for a number of years now.

While I feel sorry for those impacted the most, eg those contracted full shifts or drivers contracted 9/10 hours, we have to be realistic and accept it will happen and it's keeping with the market, in the same way we expect the pay announcement to keep with the market and match Sainsbury's etc.

This company will never do more than they have to no matter what they say

Still a "thing" in the taxi industry (well certainly the price the customer pays) as an example.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/taxi-fares/tariffs

These sort of fringe benefits and enhanced pay arrangements will usually be based on how difficult it is to recruit as well as industry standards, in the case with taxi drivers, I think it's a bit of an exception and more to do with it being a government organisation, I know private taxi firms and Uber drivers don't get extra pay (well, not time and a half) for working Sundays.

In Retail though, Tesco has done well to keep Sunday premium a thing, but I think understandably it is too expensive to maintain now because of how much minimum wage has gone up as well as the factor that there isn't enough of a supply problem to consider keeping it.

https://employeebenefits.co.uk/lidl-gb-gives-pay-rise-to-26000-hourly-paid-employees/

Well done Lidl

In terms of the Lidl announcement - fairly limited/unremarkable - nice of them to quote that their starting rate will be "up to 17% above the forthcoming NLW" - obviously that is only for London staff - clearly they don't want to compare their wage to the Real Living Wage Foundation London Min Wage (£13.15) - so Lidl's £13.55 would barely be 3% above that.

Notice a £2 enhancement for BH working - presumably this is from a flat-pay starting point - so wonder if they are struggling to persuade/force staff to work BH.

And £3.50 an hour for night work - and extending the range by an hour.

It seems clear that £12 will be the general benchmark - so the forthcoming announcement from Tesco should not bring too many surprises.

Reading comments on the ourT website (in reply to the Q3/Christmas trading statement) - as someone else pointed out - general feelings/requests for a bonus to be paid to GA/colleagues - and additional discounts (increase colleague discount to 15% all the time or increase payday to 20%) - of course, if you don't ask you don't get - but generally Tesco will simply pay minimal lip service - and our total pay package will be as expected.

Quote from: NightAndDay on 22-01-24, 07:38PM

Quote from: barafear on 22-01-24, 02:19PM

Quote from: ExSMfloor on 22-01-24, 07:32AM

Quote from: londoner83 on 16-01-24, 08:09AMWhen I was growing up in the 70's nothing opened on a Sunday, so when Sunday trading started stores offered double time to get people to work as shifts were a struggle to feel....

However anyone born since 2000 treats Sunday as just another day and as such don't see it as special. I doubt any store would have issues recruiting Sunday only colleagues now.

Bottom line is why pay a premium to existing staff when the business could easily hire new staff to do the same role at less cost?

Sunday premium will be going....the only question is when

I have to agree fully here. Sunday premium is not, and has not been a thing in the sector and many others for a number of years now.

While I feel sorry for those impacted the most, eg those contracted full shifts or drivers contracted 9/10 hours, we have to be realistic and accept it will happen and it's keeping with the market, in the same way we expect the pay announcement to keep with the market and match Sainsbury's etc.

This company will never do more than they have to no matter what they say

Still a "thing" in the taxi industry (well certainly the price the customer pays) as an example.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/taxi-fares/tariffs

These sort of fringe benefits and enhanced pay arrangements will usually be based on how difficult it is to recruit as well as industry standards, in the case with taxi drivers, I think it's a bit of an exception and more to do with it being a government organisation, I know private taxi firms and Uber drivers don't get extra pay (well, not time and a half) for working Sundays.

In Retail though, Tesco has done well to keep Sunday premium a thing, but I think understandably it is too expensive to maintain now because of how much minimum wage has gone up as well as the factor that there isn't enough of a supply problem to consider keeping it.

In the big picture.
recruiting and training cost an absolute packet, not just in initial costs but the productivity of new starts as well vs longer term staff.

In a market where the entry level can pretty much jump from company to company (look at what happened in distribution pickers just moved from whoever was paying the most)    why not pay just a little more than the "pack" to retain people.

Recruitment and training costs more and are more of a concern for positions where the supply and demand equation isn't so weighted towards supply.

I think I read somewhere that the average staff turnover for Retail as an industry is 200%, meaning that on average, staff are replaced twice in one year. This was from a few years ago but can't imagine that figure improving much.

But it is precisely the loss of leverage this imbalance brings which is why they can scrap these pay enhancements with relative impunity.

N&D yes but someone is getting to be decent by 6 months. if they leave yes the number is easyly replaced but the productivity isnt.
I could get a dairy team of 5 experienced people to complete a 22 cage delivery in 18.75 hours (5x 3.75 hour shifts)

give me 3 experienced people and 5 new starts and it wouldnt get done.

Lidl GB said the move will see its 26,000 hourly-paid staff receive some of the highest rates of pay in the sector.
From March 1, the discounter's entry level rates will increase from £11.40 to £12.00 outside of the M25, rising to £13.00 with length of service. Meanwhile, those working within the M25 will see pay rates rise from £12.85 to £13.55, increasing to £13.85 over time. These new entry level rates will be up to 17 per cent higher than the National Minimum Wage being introduced in April, the supermarket said.
The statement added: "The move represents an investment of more than £37m and includes increases for salaried colleagues across the business."
The discounter is also introducing a bank holiday premium of £2.00 per hour and will enhance its nightshift premium to £3.50 per hour, while also extending the timeframe in which it is payable by one hour.
though Lidl makes you work hard for your money, they treat the staff better.tesco could learn a thing or two from that.its tesco staff who do the great hard work and make them their big profits.yet they see fit not give the staff a nice bonus for all the hard work they do each day.it speaks for it,s self no wonder they struggle to keep staff, i,m one off the lucky ones who will soon retire.

The problem with a bonus is that people "always" want more - I'm not suggesting that's bad - but ultimately, even when we were "entitled" to a possible bonus, the max it would be was 5% of earnings over a set period - for most "part timers" - let's say 25 hours per week - their annual pay would be around £14k - so 5% = £700 - less tax,NI and pension - and you might be lucky to get £500. Of course - a tidy sum - but of course, that's assuming the max 5% payout - I'm sure I remember one year we got 2% or maybe 2.5% - so that would equate to about half that amount.
Now I'm not saying it's not welcome - but it's nothing compared to the story on here about store managers getting £60k -

I am definitely not advocating that the deal done to "roll any possible bonus" into our base pay was good - it certainly was a farce - as our base pay would have risen over a short period of time due to the NLW increase -

I guess what we all want is to feel valued - and for most of us that's not the case - and having a table full of "value food" to eat for free on the table in the canteen isn't really going to cut it either - although some people seem to have developed a taste for it!!

Ultimately Tesco is a business with a lot of employees - therefore ultimately most of us simply become a "number" - and once someone decides that cost costing is required then that number simply becomes a smaller number.

When the results are announced in a few weeks, it will be the same old language - how we're doing our best to keep prices down for our customers and also treating our staff with the biggest pay deal in history -

conveniently leaving out a few details such as:

Well we've only had to up their pay due to wage inflation over the last year leading to the largest ever increase in the NLW.


Oh and by the way, whilst we've been slashing our prices to help customers, we've also made £2.75bn profit

And in a few weeks time you'll find out how much Ken and his fellow board members get as bonuses -

Quote from: rupert7 on 23-01-24, 05:49PMthough Lidl makes you work hard for your money, they treat the staff better.tesco could learn a thing or two from that.its tesco staff who do the great hard work and make them their big profits.yet they see fit not give the staff a nice bonus for all the hard work they do each day.it speaks for it,s self no wonder they struggle to keep staff, i,m one off the lucky ones who will soon retire.

Out of interest, what makes Lidl so much better?

Surely it's their staff who make their top dogs their big profits?

As far as I'm aware they don't pay a yearly bonus!

Year ago Lidl and Aldi payed ALOT more than the big 4    but the store assistants were proper hardcore. It was a workout. Now they are much more dialed back with similar calibre of staff as the big boys

And don't forget Tesco will put up to 7.5% into your pension bag every pay day, something Aldi / Lidl don't. Your money is invested by Legal & General and can be accessed at 55yrs. All things considered, there's very little in it now.

https://www.independent.co.uk/business/morrisons-scraps-fourday-week-after-staff-complain-about-working-weekends-b2483382.html

Quote from: Teddybonkers on 24-01-24, 05:44PMAnd don't forget Tesco will put up to 7.5% into your pension bag every pay day, something Aldi / Lidl don't. Your money is invested by Legal & General and can be accessed at 55yrs. All things considered, there's very little in it now.

only if you put in 7.5 % your self,but they will invest for you with a warning that it can gain or lose. and thats Legal & General,