Expect bad news soon for people on double Time on Sunday. :(
Is this to do with the coming pay review in February that we Union reps have been invited to? I'm intrigued now, don't leave us hanging, actually I've been thinking this was coming for awhile now. :(
They can't take peoples' entitlement to that away, can they? I thought it was part of terms & conditions & they had to pay it?
Expect a letter in February to double time staff.
I would assume it will be the same as the express bonus they will buy out the double time and you won't have a say in the matter.
Sudden drop in all the double timers hogging the Sunday rota's :o the majority of double timers have dwindled in the past, and the only ones I know who do it in my store, are the close to retirement ones, who will gladly accept a buy out, to boost the pension coffers.
It makes me laugh, the people that come up with these changes are probably on mega wages, with no affect to them have no morals and think nothing of screwing over hard working members of staff who have helped this company in the past be the number one retailer in the UK.How about they take a voluntary pay cut or for go their bonus. If the post is true shame on you Tesco.
Seriously??? Does that mean every double timer would get a payout contracted or not??? I've worked every sunday since i can remember yet others dont work sundays!!! Same rules would apply??? We talking minor payoff for major long term loss i assume??? God now im hoping for those redundancys more than ever!!! When do i get some good news dave??? Lol
I would not hold out hope of redundancy at anything below WL3, Tesco won't want to pay out for staff to leave instead will simply cut the staff numbers by not replacing leavers and natural wastage as the company calls it.
no double I will never work a Sunday again full stop
When Head Office is open 24/7, at standard wage, I will give up expecting premiums for working Nights and Weekends. Until then, if they take the premiums then they have broken my contract and I will reserve the right to commence working Monday to Friday 8-4 or 9-5.
Failure to accept my new terms will be regarded as constructive dismissal......
I didn't think you could do that if they take away double on Sunday bank holidays will be next
It will depend on how many hours you are on and how many Sunday's you work but as someone who does get double time it's not worth it for me to work Sunday as I pay so much extra tax and national insurance I only end up with at most an extra two hours pay for a full day. Others say it's only worth doing if you work every Sunday but I don't want to work six days a week.
Contracted Sunday's are different, I would happily do them. I would love two days off in the week and that us worth it.
This is a long time coming. Saturday used to be premium pay for full-time. Many years ago this ended and people were at first offered a lump sum. If the refused the bonus continued but several years down the line it became forced. Time are different now, I'm just saying this is the way they did it several years ago.
Be interesting to see who refuses to do Sundays if they are only paid at single time. A lot of managers are on old style contracts and if a large proportion decided not to work Tesco could have a issue in managing stores on a Sunday.
Also can't wait to see what the lump sum buyout will be and who it applies to. Can't be fair that someone who works 3-4 Sundays a month gets the same as someone who does 1 or 2 a year.
What about us kids on time and a half, we will be reduced down to single time. It is a win win for Tesco, reduce your pay and more disgruntled employee's and the long serving will be pushed into looking for jobs. If my premiums go, so will my SAYE and will I would probably pout and refuse to buy anything from Tesco.
Buy Out lump sum will be small very small. Some people on days were offered buy outs for double pay OT shift and it was quite small amount so all of them stay with old contracts. Sory but i dont remember exact amounts.
About staff refusing working OT on Sunday - then yes there will be huge shgortage as most of the people is doing it just for extra pay.
It will be interesting to see this approach in distribution and the reaction to it.
Surely it is a consultative change as it affects your pay (if you work Sunday's and have no opt out) it is a reduction to your Contracted pay, it affects all individually which would require individual consent from those concerned.
The point That Hekseth makes is bang on the money, unsociable hours premiums are paid because the hours are unsociable as not everyone is expected to work them.
It is not enough to say that if those that don't work these times had to work these times, they would get the same reduced payments.
To reduce these premium payments for premium time then every department at every location needs to start working this time.
It's all very well, changing pensions, profit share, and declaring a flat nil investment in payroll, everyone has the same rules applied.
Yet to dictate a change that doesn't Apply to them may have its problems.
Any consultation should discuss everyone having to work Sunday if the premium is withdrawn or reduced. If it's just going to be considered a non special premium day ( a normal day) every department should cover that day by shared rotation including the likes of HR and payrol.
I suspect Sunday's will always invoke "A premium Payment" when worked to avoid the above Demand, and the possibilty of Labour being withdrawn from that day wherever it would be possible to do so whether it be by opt out or holiday entitlement.
A letter offering to buyout certain premiums would be nothing new.
I suggest people wait in order to obtain the facts before entering into a frenzied state of panic.
so if they were to offer a buy out for sunday premium this will include saturday night premium past midnight right??
Sat*rday premium no longer exists. Speaking of which, Sat*rday premiums were bought out several years ago, albeit "compulsory" although initially offered.
However, I understand your point, being that Sunday premiums do indeed start from midnight Sunday (Sat*rday night into Sunday).
Sufru,how do you know this?
Ohhhhh can't wait can I order a new car then ;D ;D
What is the % of staff on double time still ? And how many on double time work Sunday's , maybe they just wait it out till the staff on double time retire rather than getting rid of it.
Any idea how this will affect people on inclusive contracts? I have to work 13 Sundays a year but get a fully paid day off and premium to make up the double time I'm entitled to.
never had any of this double time malarky in our express! we were only matched to the time and a half a couple of years ago, before that it was a measly £1 an hour extra. Although, we were better off getting the old bonuses - as proved by the number of people who were given a lump sum payment as they were to be worse off in the long run.
my son says that there a few double timers (who are many years away from retiring yet) that always have their names down for sundays and no one else gets a look in! they are not only hogging the only overtime in the shop but making it hell for the duty manager cos they have to manage the shop with less staff cos of the cost. and then they also book lots of unpaid time off cos they make up the shortfall by working a sunday shift. In all honesty, i would do the same if i got double bubble for sundays, and didn't care about having a weekend day off. Even at time and a half we struggle to cover any sunday shifts in our express, no one wants to work.
My son is on the inclusive contract. He has to work 13 sundays and bank hols (total) in a year, with a day in lieu the following week and a premium on his pay. After the 13 are done he refuses to do anymore as they expect him to then work 6 days a week and get paid overtime - he'd rather have the day off!
I understand that these are massive ifs
if sunday double time was stopped in the stores but not in distribution, would this not amount to discrimination, IF, the case going through the courts re job description and gender is successful. :question:
also if there were a buyout of double-time sunday pay to those who only do it as overtime, then should this buyout not also be offered to those who have opted-out of sunday working. Because, (here goes,..ahem) the buyout will be to cover (or 'compensate') future losses of income for the individual, and the optout process allows for opting in at anytime in the future if a person wishes. so to give an amount to those who work overtime on a sunday, and to not give an amount to those who have opted out would be to the opted-out person's detriment. and in the opting-out literature it does say something about (can't remember the exact jargon used) that those who have opted-out cannot be treated any differently just because they have opted-out. (there....... I reckon that was a pretty good try myself.) ;)
I've never understood the reason for double bubble on Sunday's. Customers do not pay more to shop on a Sunday, why should staff be paid more to work Sunday?
In my store I am getting my team in a week on Sunday for a super Sunday to get the dept right for customers as we come out of January. They are getting single time back , at my discretion, in February.
Tesco will struggle to become more profitable if people do not accept that times they are a changing and until the workforce agree to meet mangers half way and work for normal time on Sunday it will always be a tough ask.
Think of your employer and your long term prospects and make the gesture to working for single time on Sunday's. It's no different to a Tuesday.
Please DO NOT FEED THE TROLl...he will lose interest soon enough
Nowanexmng why don't you start it all off and make the gesture by working for the minimal wage and save your employer some extra money, or why not work for free if you love it so much.
After the recent restructure i was made redundant and found a higher paid job with a different kind of retailer shortly afterwards.
Once my SD rang me to ask me to come back to Tesco I was there like a shot even though it meant an 8k pa pay "cut".
I did however manage to negotiate reinstated length of service, and Xmas 2015 and 2016 off.
Quote from: Nowanexmgr on 15-01-16, 06:35PM
I've never understood the reason for double bubble on Sunday's. Customers do not pay more to shop on a Sunday, why should staff be paid more to work Sunday?
In my store I am getting my team in a week on Sunday for a super Sunday to get the dept right for customers as we come out of January. They are getting single time back , at my discretion, in February.
Tesco will struggle to become more profitable if people do not accept that times they are a changing and until the workforce agree to meet mangers half way and work for normaltime on Sunday it will always be a tough ask.
Think of your employer and your long term prospects and make the gesture to working for single time on Sunday's. It's no different to a Tuesday.
i
What a Clown! Believe it or not Sunday is still regarded a day of rest for the majority of the Country, to spend time with their children and spouses, as people's kids will be at School on Tuesday, schools aren't conducting lessons on Sunday's. Additionally, we still live in a Christain society and some individuals attend religious services on a Sunday not a Tuesday. So please have a word with yourself.
Will this be for contracted people or over time peeps ?
Quote from: diesel.pi on 15-01-16, 06:48PM
Nowanexmng why don't you start it all off and make the gesture by working for the minimal wage and save your employer some extra money, or why not work for free if you love it so much.
Couldn't have worded it better myself love it. I've stepped down as team leader and am on £300 less a month, am contracted for Sunday's, so if this goes ahead I'll be another £250 down. So basically I'll be doing the same job I was 8 months ago, for £550 less a month 😡😡😡😡😡😡
I work for another company and they recently bought out Sundays. It was based on Sunday's actually worked over last 2 years x£60 per Sunday. If you worked every Sunday that's a fair whsck. Contracts are irrelevant as everyone is one fully flexible contracts.
Quote from: Nowanexmgr on 15-01-16, 06:55PM
After the recent restructure i was made redundant and found a higher paid job with a different kind of retailer shortly afterwards.
Once my SD rang me to ask me to come back to Tesco I was there like a shot even though it meant an 8k pa pay "cut".
I did however manage to negotiate reinstated length of service, and Xmas 2015 and 2016 off.
So why not change your user name to " Crawled back with my tail between my legs " ?
Quote from: BANDERSNATCH on 15-01-16, 09:23PM
Quote from: Nowanexmgr on 15-01-16, 06:55PM
After the recent restructure i was made redundant and found a higher paid job with a different kind of retailer shortly afterwards.
Once my SD rang me to ask me to come back to Tesco I was there like a shot even though it meant an 8k pa pay "cut".
I did however manage to negotiate reinstated length of service, and Xmas 2015 and 2016 off.
So why not change your user name to " Crawled back with my tail between my legs " ?
😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄
SD asked you personally?? Not a chance!
😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
Nowanexmanger
Have followed some of your threads, listened to your reasoning in the past, but your last few posts I feel are basically just to wind people up for some sort of self gratification!!
In a nutshell. Now you're getting on my tits :o
We will all find out the outcome of wage rise and if anything taken away etc on the 1st of February
Anyone employed before Summer 1999 (I think I it was September the terms and conditions changed) will be on double pay Sunday and Bank Holidays. This supposed payout was rumoured in my ex store a couple of years ago.
I signed the form to opt out of Sunday and Bank Holiday working in my new company on my first day, it was part of the induction.
When the double time goes all the old school will stop working Sunday's but they will lose a lot of money.
Quote from: diesel.pi on 15-01-16, 06:48PM
Nowanexmng why don't you start it all off and make the gesture by working for the minimal wage and save your employer some extra money, or why not work for free if you love it so much.
Maybe he could also 'think of his employer' and give back his redundancy payment now he's got his job back.
If these rumours are right it will be interesting to see what USDAW does about it....It has so far ignored the pay freeze, done very little over the pension changes and will probably just allow this to happen. Makes me wonder what is the point of being in a union that doesn't stand up and fight for its members interests.
I'm an old timer who gets double time for sundays,if it goes i think managers who have done alot of years service,on good money will be on the radar soon enough.i have worked hard to earn my salary over the years,so obviously I'm concerned.
I am an old timer and can't get Sundays as I cost to much, so will take the money and never do a Sunday again.
Quote from: Nowanexmgr on 15-01-16, 06:35PM
I've never understood the reason for double bubble on Sunday's. Customers do not pay more to shop on a Sunday, why should staff be paid more to work Sunday?
In my store I am getting my team in a week on Sunday for a super Sunday to get the dept right for customers as we come out of January. They are getting single time back , at my discretion, in February.
Tesco will struggle to become more profitable if people do not accept that times they are a changing and until the workforce agree to meet mangers half way and work for normal time on Sunday it will always be a tough ask.
Think of your employer and your long term prospects and make the gesture to working for single time on Sunday's. It's no different to a Tuesday.
Are you for real?! People choose to work Sundays for the financial incentives on offer. Take that away and they'll likely all opt out of Sunday working, which by the way, every staff member is entitled to do! - Good luck getting your staff to commit to work Sundays for single time. Just because it's just another day to you that does not make it so for everyone else, bear that in mind before spouting that it's just another day.
Your attitude is quite laughable and it's worrying your in a management position, you've clearly been brainwashed and turned into Mr Tesco ;)
Have to remember people have a choice, they choose to work for Tesco. That can soon change, the jobs market is a lot better than it was just a couple of years ago. Most people I know who work for Tesco now don't want to be there and are looking for a way out. I say good luck to them! The attitude of 'your lucky to have a job' by Tesco will be their undoing, as long as they keep seeing staff as a burden on the bottom line rather than an asset things won't improve.
Nowanexmgr
>:D >:( >:D >:( >:( >:D
Dave Lewis and co is on seven figure salaries and we are lucky to scrape by on 12-16k a year. I pity the staff that are under your command. I would tell you where to whistle.
I think it best to ignore those like Nowanexmgr who make pompous claims and obtuse comments.
I doubt he's even a manager likely a troll looking for a rise.
Surely those of you rightly saying you will no longer work Sundays....if this is the case I'm betting the big t will have another round of 'right hours' and contract enough staff to cover...
So juat to clatify??? Will workers who work every sun as i have since forever get a larger payoff?? And we will drop to time and a half or is it less??? Also woukd possible redundancy affect any of this???
Yes I think you'd still get time and a half and your full redundancy would be lower (-*-)
I see less of my wife and family than I would prefer, and they see less of me, my health is compromised by working such unnatural hours and my social life takes a heavy beating too. I and my family and friends accept all of this because of the financial benefit it brings.
I currently work over 40 Sundays per year at a gross benefit of around £4k p.a. and my night premium is worth a similar amount. I have 13 years left until retirement. Even without inflation I would be losing well over £100k should premiums become a thing of the past.
If Tesco should be looking to buy that part of my contract back I would probably settle for a net payment of £50k now. However, the chances of any such payment is zero. In European law it is not possible to tie anyone into an employment contract against their will so once the payment hit my bank account I would immediately move to an employer who value their drivers or one that only expects me to work Monday to Friday, during the day.
It is very unlikely that Tesco will come looking to take established premiums anyway. The number of people that are still on old enough contracts is dwindling fast and the cost and upheaval just wouldn't be worth the saving. As the number of long service employees drops due to retirements and leavers the problem of Sunday overtime will correct itself and night premiums will soon become a much less important consideration when the majority of stores cease 24 hour opening.
100k over 13 yrs youve just gave tesco reason to take all of the above.
Times that by a few thousand people it pays for itself.
I heard today it's not just Sundays it's all double time including bank holiday and pay rise might be to £8.20 ph like morisons
3.2% payrise coming in july for distribution hope the store colleagues get the same
Quote from: Mickymouse1962 on 16-01-16, 08:46AM
I am an old timer and can't get Sundays as I cost to much, so will take the money and never do a Sunday again.
Same here. I wanted a Sunday shift to be contracted when one came up. Not a chance!
Quote from: tasha66 on 18-01-16, 05:07PM
3.2% payrise coming in july for distribution hope the store colleagues get the same
do DC staff got the same pay rates/premiums as stores? ...
Ermmm hang on a second here,
It doesn't matter what premium, you have to be offered Sunday overtime, I have 2 colleagues that work every Sunday for me on double bubble and 2 at time and a half. One SM at one point told me to not have doubles in, until I quoted the people policy and told him I would not discriminate against any of my team, if they want the overtime they are entitled as anyone else.
When I went to one store I was told by a deputy I couldn't work Sundays as I cost too much, so I stuck to it until the SM called me into the office and asked why I didn't do a Sunday in 12 months I told him and he was disgusted that the deputy had even hinted at it, said deputy got a right dressing down, we could hear it 2 floors down!
It doesn't matter what premiums you get no one should be stopped from working Sunday overtime.
Trolleyboy96 is totally correct!!! It is against company policy to just let cheaper people work it to save money!!! Does anyone have a date when this will happen??? Or is it purely speculation??? Surely we must be informed if theres any truth innit???
It's just rumour at the minute.
reps in my store know it's going to happen
There is a union meeting about pay happening soon & every store has to send their rep. Maybe this is what that's about? Or probably to confirm there'll be no payrise, now that the year is nearly out anyway!
SM and PMs have a meeting near the end of Jan prior to the Feb one the reps are attending so something is defo going down, for better or worse we will see!
Quote from: oliver on 15-01-16, 09:53PM
We will all find out the outcome of wage rise and if anything taken away etc on the 1st of February
This is when we get the good or bad news if Oliver is right
The approach will be interesting!!
Sunday is a premium payment.
Bank Holiday is a payment all of its own.
Interesting to see how negotiations pan out.
The negotiations, if that's what one deems them to be these days, have concluded.
The week after next are the briefings at which some store reps will attend in order to relay information to members at their particular stores.
They have just done the same at Morrisons in order to fund the increased Living Wage. No negotiation and all done through Usdaw agreement. Still meant a decent pay rise for full timers but a pay cut for those who only work weekends.
I guess this will be a standard approach in grocery retail as it is a case of increase prices or revise the pay structure.
In 2011 Boots staff took their employers to a tribunal about loss of premiums and won . Read this today on line .
Quote from: Loki on 19-01-16, 09:44PM
The negotiations, if that's what one deems them to be these days, have concluded.
The week after next are the briefings at which some store reps will attend in order to relay information to members at their particular stores.
. So are they getting rid of double time for contracted Sunday workers ?
Conveniently timed, after the viewpoint ??? ???
There has been no official communication from Usdaw or Tesco regarding this matter.
Reps attending the briefing will be provided information regarding the pay deal for the next financial year. This should then be relayed to the members.
Up to now no official information has been leaked. Anything else up to now is pure speculation.
Something that no one seems to have mentioned in this thread is that if Sunday premiums go it will have a significant effect on the amount of pension that individuals build up! The individual and Tosco will only put in half of the amount they would on double time to their pension on a Sunday. For the person with 13 years to go that would be a lot of money and they would also pay for it with a lower final pension!
Quote from: Sidewinder on 19-01-16, 10:05PM
They have just done the same at Morrisons in order to fund the increased Living Wage. No negotiation and all done through Usdaw agreement. Still meant a decent pay rise for full timers but a pay cut for those who only work weekends.
I guess this will be a standard approach in grocery retail as it is a case of increase prices or revise the pay structure.
I think you will find that Morrisons staff had a vote and overwhelmingly voted to lose premium rates in favour of a higher base rate.
Our rep is attending a briefing on the pay deal on the 1st of February, when will the reps or managers be able to furnish the rest of us with details.
Line managers were normally briefed on the same day the union reps.
Then by the time the reps were back in the store, the briefings should then be started!
Whatever the results of the briefings there will be people who are not satisfied!
Are premiums for Sunday/bank holidays going to be removed?
Maybe, it wouldn't surprise me if they were!
While I like most people will benefit in the short term from the potential increase in the basic rate, It will be the long term basic increases that will need to be considered if they are removed!
I bet that Morrisons haven't guaranteed a minimum increase every year to offset them losing the premiums!
And at some point in the near future it will work at that potential future increases will work out in Morrisons favour after removing the premiums!
We will all just have to wait for the official announcement on or after the 1st Feb to see what's been put forward/agreed!
I don't know why you would give up your premiums for an hourly rate increase, which you will eventually get when the government increases the minimum wage in stages over the next few years. Dropping the premiums is only ever going to benefit the employer.
If staff have a vote like Morrison's on the keeping your premiums vs hourly increase it will only benefit the new starters to have an hourly increase. So I would imagine the new starters with no premiums outnumber the old timers, so that is unfair vote.
Looking at the bigger picture in a few years, I can see all supermaket's paying no more than the minimum wage of £9 and with no premiums attached. Us employees should be doing everything in power to keep hold of the premiums.
"Us employees should be doing everything in power to keep hold of the premiums."
I agree working unsocial hours should always attract a premium for doing so, else why do it.
Quote from: Nomad on 20-01-16, 02:49PM
"Us employees should be doing everything in power to keep hold of the premiums."
I agree working unsocial hours should always attract a premium for doing so, else why do it.
Unfortunately Sunday isn't really regarded as unsociable hours these days. I work Sundays and I will be royally peeved if premiums are removed.
Are we saying that we will get the opportunity to vote on this or is it an already done deal??
Morrisons apparently did, but does not mean Tesco will.
I don't think stores get to vote on anything
Quote from: picktocube on 20-01-16, 11:15AM
Quote from: Sidewinder on 19-01-16, 10:05PM
They have just done the same at Morrisons in order to fund the increased Living Wage. No negotiation and all done through Usdaw agreement. Still meant a decent pay rise for full timers but a pay cut for those who only work weekends.
I guess this will be a standard approach in grocery retail as it is a case of increase prices or revise the pay structure.
I think you will find that Morrisons staff had a vote and overwhelmingly voted to lose premium rates in favour of a higher base rate.
So Morrison's staff funded the living wage themselves!?!?!
If the living wage is to be a hourly figure then I would expect my premium hours to be payed accordingly.
Tesco and the others will have to stop paying, next to useless, directors and senior "managers" thousands of times what they pay the frontline staff. What exactly does Dave Lewis do that makes him worth millions per year? I know that competition for so called "Star Players" is high but there must be hundreds of competent people out there that would be happy to do what he does for less than half a million per year.
I've never considered communism before but the gap between the top and the bottom is way too high now. Perhaps a French Revolution might be the answer.......
It's my belief that any change that affects an individuals pay, should have each affected individuals consent. Of course ( as I have been reminded recently) any challenge to a change that is not done correctly is ultimately reliant on being settled at tribunal level, the vehicle workers have to get to that Arena is USDAW who very often give credibilty to the change at the consultative level in the First instance, so it's difficult to say the least.
Something can be as obviously wrong as the difference between black and white, but when one of the limited tools you have for redress (USDAW) has played a key part in the foundation of setting that change in motion, what can you do? As ultimately you are asking USDAW to run with a challenge that will ultimately make themselves look bad.
Quote from: SAMCRO on 20-01-16, 03:13PM
Unfortunately Sunday isn't really regarded as unsociable hours these days. I work Sundays and I will be royally peeved if premiums are removed.
It is by me, always has been, always will be, Sunday is family day, having a different day off in place of Sunday is pointless if other members of family group are at work, or put another way very unsociable to work on a Sunday.
Surely Tesco will have to buy us out of our double time contract can't just take away something that a lot of us have had over twenty years , that's not right.
Titch
'In 2011 Boots staff took their employers to a tribunal about loss of premiums and won . Read this today on line.'
Any chance of a link :question: :thumbup:
Quote from: Duracell on 20-01-16, 06:42PM
It's my belief that any change that affects an individuals pay, should have each affected individuals consent. Of course ( as I have been reminded recently) any challenge to a change that is not done correctly is ultimately reliant on being settled at tribunal level, the vehicle workers have to get to that Arena is USDAW who very often give credibilty to the change at the consultative level in the First instance, so it's difficult to say the least.
Something can be as obviously wrong as the difference between black and white, but when one of the limited tools you have for redress (USDAW) has played a key part in the foundation of setting that change in motion, what can you do? As ultimately you are asking USDAW to run with a challenge that will ultimately make themselves look bad.
You don't have to use usdaw, you have the right to represent yourself or pay a solicitor if you feel constructively dismissed through a lowering of your pay with no change to responsibilities. I know because I've done it.
If they remove the premiums am I right in thinking it will affect everyone who is 1 on double time and 2 the people who get time and a half plus overtime supplement. So they will be giving just Normal rate for everything worked ?
What about a vote of no confidence in USDAW ???
The best way to defeat this plan is for all the exiperenced long serving employees to refuse to work Sunday at single time. No one can be compelled to work on a Sunday and most that do only do so because of the extra pay it attracts.
Without the wealth of experienced staff in store on a day with minimal management presence it won't take much for the Tesco ship to hit a iceberg.
May be worth reviewing guardian website, asda have removed 2000 jobs from stores - clothing, canteen, photo and pharmacy and taken away free tea and coffee. No doubt living wage is going to really hurt these big supermarkets. I really would fear what Feb 1st will bring if Sundays is the only thing I'd be very very surprised
We all realise that double time doesn't make good housekeeping, we're not stupid and understand that they could have a third more staff working Sunday's or premium times on time and a half or less rates.
What I feel is instead of targeting the long serving staff and penalising them, they should start looking at the gap between us? Seriously, how can they justify the high salaries paid to the tiers of senior managers. Let the long serving staff alone, the premiums will dwindle with retirement and leavers.
During last summer, Matt the tw*t was rumoured to be visiting our store. The whole store's GA's were cleaning everything in sight, a third on overtime. It was explained painfully slow to us that Matt was the boss, of the boss, of the boss, of the boss of our SM :o
Yes we really need to save those few extra £'s from the double timers, to enable to pay these finger pointing leeches disgusting amounts, to have numerous pointless meetings. At the end of the day, Tesco is just an oversized corner shop, being run by overpaid no marks, some of whom are totally ignorant of how some departments are run, as they have had no experience of working in them whilst licking their way up that s*** covered ladder.
Quote from: Fair play on 20-01-16, 08:04PM
Surely Tesco will have to buy us out of our double time contract can't just take away something that a lot of us have had over twenty years , that's not right 😡
they will and they best play fair as I've done every sunday for at least the last 10yrs and i expect more than joe bloggs who doesnt work any a lot more lol
I can't see there being a vote. There wasn't with the Saturday premium. There would be chaos in my store. The only reason people worth a Sunday is for the extra money.
Tescos plan for the turnaround of the business is virtually all based on cost cutting be it losing hours, pay freeze, pension change etc etc so the thought of the living wage rearing its ugly head must give Dave sleepless nights. Going from pay freeze to paying about a 20% pay rise will have an impact on their ability to cut the price of food and make the labour intensive dot com operation even less profitable. Instead of trying to do the right thing and follow discounters paying staff what they need to live he made a speech on how he thought it was a bad idea I quote "lethal for Tesco" which is easy to say when the board of directors are on fantastic packages and don't cut their own wages.
The harsh reality is there is probably very little staff could do to stop them .They may open a token consultation but will have little benefit. Retail has such a high turnover of staff within 10 years those that were on time and a half will be a minority. Think how many in your stores are on double time? With the short houred contract some people wont have the luxury of refusing to do sundays they couldn't survive without them. Once people start feeling the pinch of basic pay far more will return to sunday working once the dust settles and eventually further into the future they will probably become contracted shifts.
Yeah your right. There are very little flexi workers in my store but they are willing to do anything to increase their pay which is fair enough . It will be interesting to see what happens if any of this comes true. If it doesn't come in Feb then it must be on the cards. Surely someone on here knows what's happening. I would lose about £250 a month of they stopped my sunday premium. Its the only reason I agreed to work a Sunday was for child care issues in the week but the extra has been a welcome bonus.
There will be no vote for stores. It has been negotiated and agreed via the National Forum.
That's so sad
Quote from: Loki on 21-01-16, 07:44AM
There will be no vote for stores. It has been negotiated and agreed via the National Forum.
So a done deal then, just waiting for the writing on the wall to confirm.
there will be a buy out of premiums just nobody knows how much yet will be interesting to see how much it will be
I am on single time rate for OT so I will not loose anything. But if Tesco starts cutting night premiums and Sunday premium then it will be time to change the job. Today £1460 gross gives average of £10 per hour so even if Tesco will offer £9.50 per hour and no extra night premium for nights then our wage is simply going down. Who will want to work nights for less money???
Better wait and see what will happen with our pay.
From a drivers point of view why would I work for Tesco without a Sunday premium, I'd get more at ocado who have an easier job because they know how to retain drivers, the only reason any of our Sunday staff work Sundays is because of premiums, if it's like this for the time and half guys it must be doubly so for double time staff.
And what are they going to do when the minimum wage pushes other staff wages up to ours, I'd be screwed if I'd do it for the same wage as the the loaders, why would anyone.
I'm so glad to be leaving soon, it's not a nice place to work anymore, all the capable staff are leaving, and once the pay is no longer better than the other retailers why would good staff stay, ocado near our depot have taken over 30 of our drivers because conditions are better, it'll be interesting to see how many flood there once pay is too.
Please tell me this is just conjecture and that USDAW haven't agreed in principle to enter discussions with the hierarchy to allow this to happen?
So just to confirm, its all premiums that are going on Sunday, not just double???
Everybody's going to be on single time????
No one knows anything yet, just rumors.
Quote from: Loki on 21-01-16, 07:44AM
There will be no vote for stores. It has been negotiated and agreed via the National Forum.
I realise your opinion is there won't be a vote, however it would seem that any change to the terms of individual contracts between Employer and Employee needs expressed agreement from both sides and shouldn't be changed via a unilateral collective agreement, individual consent would be a legal requirement, this is supported with examples of case law.
I appreciate your stance and opinion, but I feel the usual route of consultation wouldn't meet the legal requirements with regard to the changes that are being suggested.
I have a really worrying concern about the direction things are going.
Regardless of what people think, EU law Dictates along with National laws that if express terms in a contract between Employer and Employee need to change then both parties of the contract Must agree to the change, USDAW or any of its officials can't consent or agree for you.
I'm not so sure that the 'individual' has a lot to say in this instance given the individual's minority representation in terms of a Sunday presence?
As pointed out elsewhere, another company voted in favour of a premium cut in favour of an overall improvement to global payrise.
Sunday trading as a 'normal day's trading' was always going to be a game-changer inasmuch that employers would need to anticipate an increased presence of staff on this day. Is it not contentious for some employees to be be on a single type rate working alongside others on double-bubble?
Added to the mix has been this recent acceleration of minimum wage increases therein throwing another dice into the tally?
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. WELCOME TO ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A 'RACE TO THE BOTTOM' .
The joke is is on us at the bottom already. :D :D
Individual Contract is not about any kind of representation, it is about the particular individuals consent.
If 1 in 100 workers only work a Sunday and the company want to cut the rates for sunday working, the 1 in 100 need to give indivual consent to the change.
Morrisons are Represented by USDAW as too are ASDA, so as for a vote, Who voted, how many voted, and out of those that voted how many were affected by loss.
I would greivance any process that allows the participation of any worker to make a decision that does not affect them.
'I'm uncertain as to whether 'consent' has much clout for the one in a hundred and worries me most.
There may well be an air of inevitability in all this, and for me, I would welcome a buyout of my Sunday supplement, closely followed by a redundancy package just to get out of the upcoming vortex.
There will be soon 'no pride' in being working class, getting off your arse to hold down a job. Servitude will be taught as a good thing in your life. Resistance will be futile :D. Accept what you are given or be deemed a naysayer/criminal.
We are headed for the 'Third way'
Quote from: Duracell on 21-01-16, 06:15PM
Individual Contract is not about any kind of representation, it is about the particular individuals consent.
If 1 in 100 workers only work a Sunday and the company want to cut the rates for Sunday working, the 1 in 100 need to give indivual consent to the change.
Morrisons are Represented by USDAW as too are ASDA, so as for a vote, Who voted, how many voted, and out of those that voted how many were affected by loss.
I would grievance any process that allows the participation of any worker to make a decision that does not affect them.
Duracell asda are not represented by usdaw,.....they only recognise the gmb
I have had the pleasure of meeting USDAW reps who work for ASDA.
When they decided to end the Saturday premiums they offered a buy out , I refused a few weeks later I was then told the process of contractual notice would begin and I would be offered a new contract without Saturday premiums. I guess we will be given the option of accepting the buyout before they start giving notice to staff.
Quote from: Duracell on 21-01-16, 07:39PM
I have had the pleasure of meeting USDAW reps who work for ASDA.
Obviously my 6 years as a senior manager counts for nothing then as you've "met" a rep. Usdaw are not recognised... Are they like the usdaw reps that work for aldi?
Usdaw not recognised by Asda. Recognised Union are GMB.
Rather odd, USDAW are training Asda staff to be reps.
Seems a bit of a pointless exercise if they have no recognition.
But you must both be right and I witnessed a totally pointless futile exercise.
Duracell,
Knowing USDAW, that sounds like a totally pointless thing they would come up with. So glad I left them, and took my money with me.
USDAW is a business making money its simple as that, some reps do it from their hearts some are in it for themselves, two at our store have openly said that to me. Have USDAW communicated with staff in the last 6 months about anything ?
Duracell
USDAW and totally pointless in the same sentence ???
usdaw was Asdas recognised union in Northern Ireland several years ago ,but I am unsure if they still are.
Quote from: Duracell on 21-01-16, 09:35PM
Rather odd, USDAW are training Asda staff to be reps.
Seems a bit of a pointless exercise if they have no recognition.
But you must both be right and I witnessed a totally pointless futile exercise.
Whatever you witnessed doesn't alter the fact that GMB are the recognised Union not Usdaw.
[admin]Please do not quote immediately prior post(s).[/admin]
Well said Loki in my humble opinion GMB are actually more of a puppet than usdaw,
Quote from: Duracell on 21-01-16, 05:20PM
Quote from: Loki on 21-01-16, 07:44AM
There will be no vote for stores. It has been negotiated and agreed via the National Forum.
I realise your opinion is there won't be a vote, however it would seem that any change to the terms of individual contracts between Employer and Employee needs expressed agreement from both sides and shouldn't be changed via a unilateral collective agreement, individual consent would be a legal requirement, this is supported with examples of case law.
I appreciate your stance and opinion, but I feel the usual route of consultation wouldn't meet the legal requirements with regard to the changes that are being suggested.
It's not an opinion and it is certainly not something I agree with or endorse. You do not work within the store format and therefore understandably to not understand the way in which the pay negotiations are handled on behalf of stores.
The way in which pay negotiations are conducted AND agreed are indeed a disgrace, but at the same time are legal.
The cessation of the Saturday premiums were consulted and negotiated on in the usual manner and met the legal requirements via the Partnership Agreement for stores.
My opinion is that it is a disgrace. You know me well enough to know that of me by now Duracell. However, my opinion matters not, I can only relay to you the facts of the process within stores and that which are compliant with legislation via the Partnership Agreement.
well I would look forward to a buy out of Sunday and bank holidays premium means I won't be working over easter this year
Even though we don't know exactly what s happening we do know that next week Store Managers have their briefing and then on the 1st of Feb a union member from stores attend their meeting, the email states that these participants are not allowed to return to stores when the meeting has concluded, the info is embargoed till the 2nd of Feb.
We will all know very soon.....
Something big is happening then, just like last years restructure I guess I'll end up finding out all the details on here - long before the powers that be in my store decide to tell me anything.
I am intrigued to say the least. If it is a buy out, hope its a good bit double bubble for me!
Would I be correct in thinking the turn around bonus will be issued and not taking into affect any reduction in Sunday premiums if removed ????
And if this is to pay for the living wage, will the extra pay for G,A s reflect up the pay scale?
Just wondering cos being a team leader in express I would not be happy running the store for only £1.00 an hour more than a general assistant??
Turnaround Bonus if achieved is based on all earnings up to end of week 52.As for living wage any ga and team leaders are same work level so get same increase. Hope that helps.
Quote from: mosquito on 24-01-16, 01:49AM
Would I be correct in thinking the turn around bonus will be issued and not taking into affect any reduction in Sunday premiums if removed ????
And if this is to pay for the living wage, will the extra pay for G,A s reflect up the pay scale?
Just wondering cos being a team leader in express I would not be happy running the store for only £1.00 an hour more than a general assistant??
It makes me laugh; you took the job on the basis of the wage offered at the time. Now you come on here moaning you would not be happy running the store for only £1.00 more than GA. You should be grateful that you have a job that pays a bit more for you to enjoy some luxuries.
£1 extra say times 36 x 4 = £144 extra every 4 weeks; a GA would have to work some OT to get that extra pay.
Remember : EVERY LITTLE HELPS. 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
Or as a wiseman once said : "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented
with what he would like to have"
Red Rock clearly doesn't know what an express team leaders job looks like!
Also, £1 an hour more than a GA is the same as step up pay for running a shift!
Quote from: Mickymouse1962 on 23-01-16, 09:39PM
well I would look forward to a buy out of Sunday and bank holidays premium means I won't be working over easter this year
If there are changes to Sunday and BH premiums ,it will not change that quick .
Is this just for the double timers? Or is time & half likely to go as well?
Quote from: AlexM on 24-01-16, 11:40AM
Red Rock clearly doesn't know what an express team leaders job looks like!
Don't feed the troll ;)
Quote from: AlexM on 24-01-16, 11:40AM
Red Rock clearly doesn't know what an express team leaders job looks like!
Never said anything about what the job looks like! I'm pointing out the fact that TLs take on the appointment with the offer of the wage set at the time, but then to moan about the wage structure seems pointless. If the cap fits wear it, otherwise, step down, there are always someone else who would appreciate the job. People are jumping to conclusions before anything is put forward so Calm Down Dear!
Yes, when the job was offered the pay was £1.61 per hour more. If the GA wage is increased to £8.20 per hour as has been suggested then the extra responsibility (quite a lot of it in express) will only attract an extra 80p per hour approx if the team leaders aren't also increased accordingly.
They would also be on less per hour than a GA "stepping up" who would get £8.20 + £1.00 per hour of duty shift - more than their team leader!
Hence the same problem tesco have with recruiting managers now - the pitiful pay differential between the job levels just isn't worth the extra hassle.
Also in Express, the TL is basically a duty manager, with all the responsibility, but less money.
As I previously mentioned people are jumping to conclusions on various matters, hence it would be best to await and then see the outcome of big Chiefs announcement.
I think whatever conclusion we jump to, the forthcoming announcement will likely be to the detriment of the employees.
It always has been the detriment of the employee,look at what as been taken away from us in the last 20 years,it's all about saving money now to keep the company going,and all agreed by usdaw it's a disgrace,
Also usdaws top brass getting big money like Tesco top brass,usdaw would not want to lose all those members money paying in each week now would they,so tesco have got us all where they want us.
Quote from: Red Rock on 24-01-16, 11:28AM
Quote from: mosquito on 24-01-16, 01:49AM
Would I be correct in thinking the turn around bonus will be issued and not taking into affect any reduction in Sunday premiums if removed ????
And if this is to pay for the living wage, will the extra pay for G,A s reflect up the pay scale?
Just wondering cos being a team leader in express I would not be happy running the store for only £1.00 an hour more than a general assistant??
It makes me laugh; you took the job on the basis of the wage offered at the time. Now you come on here moaning you would not be happy running the store for only £1.00 more than GA. You should be grateful that you have a job that pays a bit more for you to enjoy some luxuries.
£1 extra say times 36 x 4 = £144 extra every 4 weeks; a GA would have to work some OT to get that extra pay.
Remember : EVERY LITTLE HELPS. 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
Or as a wiseman once said : "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented
with what he would like to have"
You take the job based on the money offered yes but you also look at the cash differential between your previous role. I.e extra responsibilities = extra pay. If you view this figure as fair you accept. I think the point is for the big t to close this monetary gap without changing responsibility is unfair and maybe viewed as discrimination
QuoteAlso in Express, the TL is basically a duty manager, with all the responsibility, but less money.
Only real difference between a deputy and team leader in express is deputy looks after holidays and reviews, as far as day to day routines and the running of duty shifts go team leaders and deputys are doing the same role with team leaders on a lot less money, no wonder so many team leaders are leaving express these days.
Had a long read of this thread.
So the issue is some staff in stores get paid double time where others don't. But how many different rates of overtime are being offered at the moment?
Some staff are on time and a half while others are on time and a third or something like that if I'm correct.
While I understand any company wants to hire its labour for as cheap as possible , I can not for the life of me defend a union that will not take strike action or even legal action against a employer that is targeting its employees because of its own mistakes.
Let's be honest here Tesco are in trouble with the serious fraud office because of insane decisions made by the top brass.
The people now paying for this is the average worker, pensions closed, overtime reduced, a union that will not fight for the workers and now we have the threat of overtime rates cut.
If loyalty counts for nothing then I suggest tescos will reap what they sow.
Sunday working in shops and betting shops
Staff don't have to work on Sundays if they're:
shop workers who started before 26 August 1994 and are still with the same employer (in Northern Ireland, this is before 4 December 1997)
betting shop workers who started before 2 January 1995 and are still with the same employer (in Northern Ireland, this is before 26 February 2004)
Employers only have to pay staff a higher rate for working on Sundays if the contract says so.
All staff should be told about their Sunday working rights when they first start work.
Opting out of Sunday working
All shop and betting shop workers can opt out of Sunday working unless Sunday is the only day they have been employed to work on.
An employee can opt out of Sunday working at any time, even if they have agreed to work on Sundays in their contract.
The employee must give their employer 3 months' notice that they want to opt out of Sunday working. They must continue to work on Sundays during the 3 month notice period if their employer wants them to.
An employer who needs staff to work on Sundays must tell them in writing that they can opt out. They must do this within 2 months of the person starting work - if they don't, only 1 month's notice is needed to opt out.
Quick query regarding Sundays...
If somebody who is contracted to work Sundays does another day in the week as a one off, to cover holiday, will they lose their extra bit of pay for working a Saturday instead of a Sunday?
the rule book only 2 premiums for a sunday double time and time and half.
After reading through the entire thread I have noticed the individual who initially posted the original comment has only posted one more comment in the entire thread and that was on page 1. Just an observation
[gmod]Which could indicate a lot or indicate nothing. Just an observation a fact.[/gmod]
In that case if there is only double time and time and a half. It will be all premuims including time and a half. As time and a half will now be the biggest wage to pay out on a Sunday through out the company not the double time staff.
So I can see the entire Sunday becoming a single time day with a possible 5 pound bonus for working it shift.
Just a theory ,night shifts would be interesting to see how they get anyone to work if that's the case.
Personally think the original comment was posted was correct.but the person who posted has been busted by the powers above.v sensitive info to be leaked,it wouldn't take them long to narrow down who it was.
in my store we have a nightshift security guard,who is on the old contract and he works most Saturday nights in the bws for overtime,we know he earns approx. £200 for every Saturday night he works,alot of us think this is disgusting,no wonder the company wants to scrap double time payments
A colleague asked about these "rumours" last night on Yammer - that post has now been removed. Read into that what you will. Something big is happening, there are too many similarities in how this is unfolding to the restructure debacle last year. All the best folks.
the fact that posts are being removed from yammer about this and stores losing 24 hour opening.says it all I believe
Open, honest and transparency then,has any management replied about staff questioning it then?
Red Rock
'Or as a wiseman once said : "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have" '
Question, was this wiseman 'contented' at the time, with the torrent of Bu115hit spewing forth from every crack and orifice on and in his body. :question: ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
All sunday shifts WILL be contracted out to the cheaper peeps to stop the double timers getting a look in(the beans got spilt by accident by a manager instore and it seems loads more have let the cat out of the bag from what I've read on here and yet they still stay silent at the top)but what about the double timers that are contracted for sundays??? This doesnt really solve the problem??? Besides arent they discriminating by doing that??? I was told by a rep once it doesnt matter what premium you get you should all have an equal right??? More b******t??? Think they should at least offer a decent buyout lol ill keep dreaming ha ha
Those who are contracted to Sundays will simply be bought out of their premium. Either take the buyout or take the redundancy would be the only 2 options available, hypothetically of course.....
Quote from: mixerman on 25-01-16, 02:28PM
in my store we have a night-shift security guard,who is on the old contract and he works most Sat*rday nights in the bws for overtime,we know he earns approx. £200 for every Sat*rday night he works,a lot of us think this is disgusting,no wonder the company wants to sc**p double time payments
Yes there is a lot of people like that. The biggest problem is when people with pay like that are doing 30 min job in 2 hours.
The question is how big buy out will be. I asked old staff members how much money they been offered when Saturday premium been sc**pped. It was less than 300 pound per person :D :D :D but that was long time ago now.
you have to remember that Saturday premium was only 20% and i believe that the buyout was equivalent to 1 years worth of Saturdays that you worked.
Surely everyone on double has to be offered buyout??? Contracted or not??? Otherwise people will still be on double if for some reason needed to cover in some situation!!!
Does this mean managers won't have to work Sundays. I know you can sign an opt out but the grief you would get isn't worth it. Wouldn't care if we got an extra day off during the week but I don't want to work 6 days a week.
My stock control manager is defecating it now, we told him all of us will be dropping the sunday if it happens.
Stock control routines on a Sunday :question:
Quote from: optout on 25-01-16, 05:32PM
Red Rock
'Or as a wiseman once said : "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have" '
Question, was this wiseman 'contented' at the time, with the torrent of Bu11s**t spewing forth from every crack and orifice on and in his body. :question: ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Couldn't answer your question, as I never stayed around to ask him! But he must be as he is still working away at the Big T and the smell is awful it would make you spew!! 😷😷😷😷
;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Metroman on 25-01-16, 05:54PM
All sunday shifts WILL be contracted out to the cheaper peeps to stop the double timers getting a look in(the beans got spilt by accident by a manager instore and it seems loads more have let the cat out of the bag from what I've read on here and yet they still stay silent at the top)but what about the double timers that are contracted for sundays??? This doesnt really solve the problem??? Besides arent they discriminating by doing that??? I was told by a rep once it doesnt matter what premium you get you should all have an equal right??? More b******t??? Think they should at least offer a decent buyout lol ill keep dreaming ha ha
The manager hasn't spilt any beans, as NOT one manager in ANY store knows what is going to happen!
Even SD's haven't been briefed yet!
What that manager has done is either decided off their own back to openly discriminate against certain workers, or has been told by there manager to discriminate against certain workers!
Either way both are illegal and will get those managers involved in serious s*** if they actually do it and a grievance goes in etc!
We will all just have to wait till 1st Feb to find out, like the SM's, PM's and union reps!
Morris999 store managers were briefed today on the pay reward via conference calls with sd or som
- All colleagues on time and half from July
- Removal of night premium 1
- No Buyout any colleague who will be worse off after will receive a lump sum in July of the difference in loss covering 18 months.
- Pay Award is 3.1%
- Location pay is going from 6 bands to 3 bands.
Burns how do you know this info ?
From what date is the 3.1% award applied?
Store Managers were briefed yesterday that's all I shall say...The disorganised ones leave there briefs lying around
Quote from: picktocube on 26-01-16, 02:51PM
From what date is the 3.1% award applied?
start of July
Please wait until the official briefings take place before getting excited or downbeat about anything posted on here. There will be a lot more to the pay review as a whole. What burns has posted is embargoed and no doubt there will be more information posted on here. However it might be best to receive all the information next Monday.
Quote from: burns2015 on 26-01-16, 02:39PM
- All colleagues on time and half from July
- Removal of night premium 1
- No Buyout any colleague who will be worse off after will receive a lump sum in July of the difference in loss covering 18 months.
- Pay Award is 3.1%
- Location pay is going from 6 bands to 3 bands.
The lump sum for loss of Night Premium 1 from July will it be at current rate or what would have been the new rate from July had it continued to run?
Quote from: burns2015 on 26-01-16, 02:39PM
- All colleagues on time and half from July
- Removal of night premium 1
- No Buyout any colleague who will be worse off after will receive a lump sum in July of the difference in loss covering 18 months.
- Pay Award is 3.1%
- Location pay is going from 6 bands to 3 bands.
Does that Mean all colleagues on double tie, will be down to time and a half. or all colleagues will be losing times and a half too.
and the removal on night premium 1 is a bitch too.
what i'm wondering while all this is going on, and us on the shop floor, are losing more wages. struggling with what we earn as it is... what about the People sitting in the ivory towers.. and they gonna take a loss of earning too, I think not.
double time colleagues going to same as the rest at time and a half.
Quote from: burns2015 on 26-01-16, 02:39PM
- All colleagues on time and half from July
- Removal of night premium 1
- No Buyout any colleague who will be worse off after will receive a lump sum in July of the difference in loss covering 18 months.
- Pay Award is 3.1%
- Location pay is going from 6 bands to 3 bands.
Good Info - Any quote regarding new rate Night Premium 2 - assuming their is good news there in light of continuing information from elsewhere
Admin
any chance of posting burns2015's new info as a sticky at the top, given its importance right now, as i imagine lots of new guests will be logging on trying to find it.
Thanks for the info Burns.
Yeah thanks for the headsup. This will affect me, but at least I can prepare now. :thumbup:
so is np1 the 10pm to 12am premium,or the 12am to 6am premium?
10-12
well that's no surprise then.paving the way to save even more money when the powers that be decide to actually move the nightshift to twilights in a few months time
so all old staff will be sh#fed no buy out no compensation for loosing a benefit I feel a constructive dismissal claim coming on as it will be a change to my terms of employment
Burns. So are double timers now getting time and a half. Still better than some who get just time and a bit. But still a kick in the teeth. (-*-)
Mickymouse 1962 - No Buyout any colleague who will be worse off after will receive a lump sum in July of the difference in loss covering 18 months.
Where is this information coming from? It seems to me people are just guessing , s** stirring and making things up.
Here's the facts.
Tesco the employer have a contract to pay you so much every week.
You the emoloyee have the same contract and must supply your labour.
Now if any one of the party's wants to change the contract then it must be by mutal agreement.
If not its a dispute.
Taking away premuims that are in your contract would mean a break in contract by the employer and open them to legal regress.
The law of the united kingdom covers every inch of the kingdom , Tesco stores and depots are not magically imune from British law no matter how much they believe it to be.
Now onto the union on this matter, I have tried my best to find a statement or a press release.
Silence is the golden word from the body paid to look after and support workers interest.
So I'm confident Tesco are not going to change premiums without a compensation pakage.
As Burns is so well informed are there going to be any further structure changes . Heard rumours about pm and compliance?
Quote from: cosmosmallpiece on 26-01-16, 05:29PM
Mickymouse 1962 - No Buyout any colleague who will be worse off after will receive a lump sum in July of the difference in loss covering 18 months.
That will mean that all colleagues currently on double time will be worse off so therefore they will all receive the lump sum ? Is that correct ?
so most of us full time night workers will loose 40 hours of np1 a month,that's a fair bit of dosh
Quote from: the rule book on 26-01-16, 05:38PM
Where is this information coming from? It seems to me people are just guessing , s** stirring and making things up.
Here's the facts.
Tesco the employer have a contract to pay you so much every week.
You the emoloyee have the same contract and must supply your labour.
Now if any one of the party's wants to change the contract then it must be by mutal agreement.
If not its a dispute.
Taking away premuims that are in your contract would mean a break in contract by the employer and open them to legal regress.
The law of the united kingdom covers every inch of the kingdom , Tesco stores and depots are not magically imune from British law no matter how much they believe it to be.
Now onto the union on this matter, I have tried my best to find a statement or a press release.
Silence is the golden word from the body paid to look after and support workers interest.
So I'm confident Tesco are not going to change premiums without a compensation pakage.
Yes in the same way Tesco try to enforce an 8 hours beak between shifts when legally it is 11 hours.
Quote from: Whisky1 on 26-01-16, 05:40PM
As Burns is so well informed are there going to be any further structure changes . Heard rumours about pm and compliance?
Not well informed pal all Store Managers were briefed yesterday just some don't keep it quiet or leave there brief lying about for others to read.
Quote from: Tesco bird on 26-01-16, 05:27PM
Burns. So are double timers now getting time and a half. Still better than some who get just time and a bit. But still a kick in the teeth. (-*-)
Not pleased overall , ( bigger picture ) but to those 20 year served colleagues who told me to my face when I started that I was not to do Sundays as Sunday was theirs......... Enjoy your basic rate Sundays , I am just doing what you told me to do .😀😀😀😀😀😂😂😂😉😇
Yes Titch thats how I read it
It's simple -
Eradication of double time. Those who currently get paid double time premium will no longer be paid such. They will move to time and a half.
Night premium 1 is hours worked 22:00 - 00:00.
Anyone facing a loss of earnings will be compensated with 18months worth the difference.
So am I right in thinking, it will be contracted double timers who get the buyout ? In my store some do the odd Sunday, and some never do any . It would not be fair for the non contracted to be compensated to the same level as they have been doing the Sunday as overtime ( which is voluntary ) .
I would imagine people who are contracted to times when the premiums apply will receive compensation as they're not just going to give money away to people who aren't contracted, I can't see that they would give away £x amount to staff when they don't need to..
Just read on the forum brief that payroll is being kept flat as stated last year so how is there a pay rise..?
It is for contracted colleagues only or people on a 5 from 7 day contract who do some sundays.
Quote from: Noobfirstclass on 26-01-16, 06:12PM
I would imagine people who are contracted to times when the premiums apply will receive compensation as they're not just going to give money away to people who aren't contracted, I can't see that they would give away £x amount to staff when they don't need to..
Just read on the forum brief that payroll is being kept flat as stated last year so how is there a pay rise..?
That was last year payroll being kept flat.This is for this the 2016 pay reward.
I'm not contracted to work Sunday's , I have to work them as part of my rota in express I've prob worked 45 Sunday's last yr . So why should I be treated any different from somebody whose contracted for Sunday's surly who ever has worked Sunday's gets the difference based over the 18 months.
Quote from: diesel.pi on 26-01-16, 06:17PM
I'm not contracted to work Sunday's , I have to work them as part of my rota in express I've prob worked 45 Sunday's last yr . So why should I be treated any different from somebody whose contracted for Sunday's surly who ever has worked Sunday's gets the difference based over the 18 months.
Your different your would get it a your on a 5 from 7 contract So you would get it based on difference averaged over a 12 month period.
Quote from: burns2015 on 26-01-16, 06:17PM
Quote from: Noobfirstclass on 26-01-16, 06:12PM
I would imagine people who are contracted to times when the premiums apply will receive compensation as they're not just going to give money away to people who aren't contracted, I can't see that they would give away £x amount to staff when they don't need to..
Just read on the forum brief that payroll is being kept flat as stated last year so how is there a pay rise..?
That was last year payroll being kept flat.This is for this the 2016 pay reward.
It's on the forum pack I literally just read that came down earlier. I'll look again lol
Edit: yes it does say holding payroll investment flat
Screenshot: (http://s23.postimg.org/7zrelgklz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/7zrelgklz/)
Quote from: Noobfirstclass on 26-01-16, 06:34PM
Screenshot: (http://s23.postimg.org/7zrelgklz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/7zrelgklz/)
so are we getting a pay rise ?
Quote from: burns2015 on 26-01-16, 02:39PM
- All colleagues on time and half from July
- Removal of night premium 1
- No Buyout any colleague who will be worse off after will receive a lump sum in July of the difference in loss covering 18 months.
- Pay Award is 3.1%
- Location pay is going from 6 bands to 3 bands.
Do we have any info regarding Night Premium 2 from July 1st, if that is not increased by same 3.1% then Nights are going to be far worse off after 18 months - but then there may still be an ulterior motive regarding their future
NP2 is increasing.
Quote from: burns2015 on 26-01-16, 07:06PM
NP2 is increasing.
Thank you - would you like to speculate by how much ?
Sorry I did see it but can not remember the figure.
Ok, I'll be in suspense till next Mon / Tuesday !
What about all the bank holidays a lot of people do work them all as well as contracted for Sunday's every Sunday.as usual screwed over by the company again if I lose my home because I can't pay my mortgage I will get my sleeping bag and sleep in the managers office ,shxxxy company.money grabbing baxxxxds ,why don't they cut the pay of the parts in the ivory towers.
So when they state everyone worse off Will get a lump some of
18 months of premiums lost does this mean after the 3.1% other wise everyone . Losing premium would be worse off surely?
Quote from: the rule book on 26-01-16, 05:38PM
Where is this information coming from? It seems to me people are just guessing , s** stirring and making things up.
Here's the facts.
Tesco the employer have a contract to pay you so much every week.
You the emoloyee have the same contract and must supply your labour.
Now if any one of the party's wants to change the contract then it must be by mutal agreement.
If not its a dispute.
Taking away premuims that are in your contract would mean a break in contract by the employer and open them to legal regress.
The law of the united kingdom covers every inch of the kingdom , Tesco stores and depots are not magically imune from British law no matter how much they believe it to be.
Now onto the union on this matter, I have tried my best to find a statement or a press release.
Silence is the golden word from the body paid to look after and support workers interest.
So I'm confident Tesco are not going to change premiums without a compensation pakage.
Yes, its a big unknown about cuts, any kind of compensations etc.
But remeber that Tesco or any other emplyer in UK doesnt have to pay any kind of night premiums or any so called unsocial hours bonuses. Beacuse of that Tesco might try now to do everything what is possible to f*** us up by cutting premiums and "IF" offer us as lowest as possible buy out.
Without NP1 a full timer will loose 60 pound a month. s*** that is a lot of the money ....
Quote from: chris9997 on 26-01-16, 08:07PM
So when they state everyone worse off Will get a lump some of
18 months of premiums lost does this mean after the 3.1% other wise everyone . Losing premium would be worse off surely?
As I understand it if you are currently working on nights with Night Premium1 or days/nights being paid time x2 for Sunday working and they form part of your current contract of employment they will stop from July 1st, however you will be paid for them with a lump sum equal to 78 weeks
From July 1st Night Premium stops all together and Sunday / Bank Holiday x2 goes to 1-1/2 so you WILL lose out, Tesco hoping that the lump sum up front eases the pain
Quote from: yorkshireboy on 26-01-16, 08:25PM
Quote from: chris9997 on 26-01-16, 08:07PM
So when they state everyone worse off Will get a lump some of
18 months of premiums lost does this mean after the 3.1% other wise everyone . Losing premium would be worse off surely?
As I understand it if you are currently working on nights with Night Premium1 or days/nights being paid time x2 for Sunday working and they form part of your current contract of employment they will stop from July 1st, however you will be paid for them with a lump sum equal to 78 weeks
From July 1st Night Premium stops all together and Sunday / Bank Holiday x2 goes to 1-1/2 so you WILL lose out, Tesco hoping that the lump sum up front eases the pain
I should make clear that the 78 weeks paid is for the said loss of premiums - I calculate that 5day NP1 @ 10hrs = £1170 less tax NI etc.
Quote from: Hammer10 on 26-01-16, 07:18PM
What about all the bank holidays a lot of people do work them all as well as contracted for Sunday's every Sunday.as usual screwed over by the company again if I lose my home because I can't pay my mortgage I will get my sleeping bag and sleep in the managers office ,shxxxy company.money grabbing baxxxxds ,why don't they cut the pay of the parts in the ivor theirsy towers.
They will say " Don't take a mortgage based on " possible " overtime . I , although sympathising agree with that up to a point having been told in no uncertain terms when I started that I was "not to do Sundays as it was theirs " . I will therefore not be offering my sofa to those who though have been hogging the easy money for so long end up homeless .
Hypothetically speaking, would they look to rate the compensation package (based on 18 months worth of premium losses) on:
(1) Double time @ current rate of pay VS 'time & half' @ new rate of pay?
or
(2) Double time @ new rate of pay VS 'time & half' @ new rate of pay?
Interestingly, The 2004 Annual Pay Review established the principle that Night Premiums would increase each year in line with the Core Award.
However, in the 2013 Annual Pay Review although both night premiums increased in line with the core award, the Company "expressed preference" not to use the pay pot to fund an increase to Night Premium 1. They claimed this was due to significant improvements being made in previous years and there being no issue in attracting or retaining staff to work late in the evenings.
Food for thought.
I see that with the 3.1% rise on the starter rate, it just covers the new "National Living Wage".
Bet they'll boast that they pay the "National Living Wage".
When they got rid of the bonus structure in Express a couple of years ago there was no individual consultations or anything. It was apparently negotiated for a long time with the union & then it was rolled out. Anybody who was worse off under the new pay structure (aligned to the same as superstores) was compensated with the difference in earnings for 18months. Many people got a payout so that concludes that many were worse off.
This appears to be the same kinda thing. Union negotiated our terms & conditions away for us in return for a bit of a payout.
I would expect, like with the expresses, they will look at how much each affected employee earned from the soon to be removed premiums over a set period of time (average probably 12-24 months previous) & compensate them accordingly. So anyone who regularly worked sunday/bank hols at double time will get a lot & those that never actually worked the days & earned the premiums will get nothing or very little as they haven't actually lost out.
There are some people I know who will be livid about this. Some of them need the money to survive. Others use double on a sunday as a way to take 2 days time off unpaid.
Back to Burns- so are we getting the turnaround bonus and a 3.1 % payrise or is it that we will get a bonus of 3.1%?
Quote from: chris9997 on 26-01-16, 08:07PM
So when they state everyone worse off Will get a lump some of
18 months of premiums lost does this mean after the 3.1% other wise everyone . Losing premium would be worse off surely?
. I am wondering the same thing . Is the lump sum worked out after the wage rise increase ? Which would then make the lump sum a lot less ?
When Express staff lost bonus and were given 18 months of the difference it was after the pay increase.
Quote from: burns2015 on 27-01-16, 12:20AM
When Express staff lost bonus and were given 18 months of the difference it was after the pay increase.
Not much of a payout then ! What would that work out as for the Sunday double time ?
That may be worked out as an average of what the value of the premium was on your previous earnings? I can't imagine they'll just pay everyone out the same amount, and expect anyone who is entitled to double, but never actually worked the shifts & got it, will not get very much as they won't actually be financially worse off?
The company recon its only around 15% of colleagues who will take less home and who will get the payment. Its only contracted hours that qualify not overtime. Only exception would be anyone on a any 5 days from 7 contract who would work Sundays adhoc an example being Express TL where if there were to be loss it would be based on the previous year.
Quote from: burns2015 on 27-01-16, 01:00AM
The company recon its only around 15% of colleagues who will take less home and who will get the payment. Its only contracted hours that qualify not overtime. Only exception would be anyone on a any 5 days from 7 contract who would work Sundays adhoc an example being Express TL where if there were to be loss it would be based on the previous year.
with the 3.1 pay rise that will keep the Sunday pay relatively the same for us contracted double timers ( if I've worked it out right ) but will be quite a wage increase for current time and a halfers so I fail to see what being loyal to this company has achieved ? Or perhaps I'm just totally thick when working out the sums ?
Loyalty and commitment means nothing to tesco anymore,we are all just a number sold down the river By usdaw yet again,while those at the top in usdaw get their big wages through staff subscriptions and tesco directors get their big wages and very large bonuses.out with the old in with the new cheap labour,all that hard work over the years keeping this company going we are just treat disgustingly.
Totally agree :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Tesco have a debt pile of £17.5 billion pounds, they have to pay bond holders £1.1 billion by September 2016 and a further £330 million by following January.i bet this debt doesn't affect Dave or Matt's wages,pension or benefits like it has staff on the shop floor running round like fools,and treat like idiots.
Quote from: burns2015 on 27-01-16, 12:20AM
When Express staff lost bonus and were given 18 months of the difference it was after the pay increase.
Does this mean that they will most likely look at your existing monthly premium total pre-payrise compared to your new monthly premium total post-payrise, and give you 18 months worth of the difference in premiums?
If they were to base any compensation on your monthly total wage pre-payrise versus post-payrise, that would dilute the payrise amount on your contracted 36.5 hours surely?
Sorry if I've confused the matter, I'm confusing myself lol
Quote from: oliver on 27-01-16, 03:19AM
Tesco have a debt pile of £17.5 billion pounds, they have to pay bond holders £1.1 billion by September 2016 and a further £330 million by following January.i bet this debt doesn't affect Dave or Matt's wages,pension or benefits like it has staff on the shop floor running round like fools,and treat like idiots.
Premium payments are not a benefit they are an expressed term in individual employment contracts, USDAW cannot agree to any change without your expressed consent.
It can't be done without individual agreement to the change.
When you are informed of any change if you do not agree make it Known
If you are right Duracell then Tesco could be about to make a huge error in judgement.
I cannot imagine they have got this wrong legally.
Obviously I will not comment on DC's as I do not work within this format nor do I have any dealings with regards to representing its Usdaw members.
However, with reference to the way in which pay negotiations are conducted and agreed within stores via collective bargaining with no ballot, your statement is incorrect Duracell. That is not to say that I am in any way shape or form in agreement with the way in which such matters are agreed.
I have mentioned before the cessation of the Saturday premiums several years ago. This was negotiated, agreed and implemented in much the same way to that which is being discussed. Which, I may add, I will not make any comment on.
Working conditions are, in an ideal world, collectively bargained in good faith, of which I'm sure many will take a rather dim view of with regards to Usdaw.
Items covered by the collective bargaining agreement between Usdaw and Tesco via the Partnership Agreement for stores include, but are not limited to: wages, terms and conditions of employment, work rules, grievance and disciplinary procedures, business restructuring, holidays, overtime rates, shift premium payments, Sunday premium payments, location pay.
An individual agreement is not required by law with regards to the above items that are negotiated and agreed upon by the National Forum on behalf of the members.
Members are not balloted as this "right" was discarded, as recommended by Usdaw and voted in favour of by a majority vote.
Harsh? Yes.
Unfair? Yes?
Disgraceful? Yes.
Unlawful? No.
Yeah they don't do things like that! ( sorry to be sarcastic).
They are looking to make cuts to fund impending fines for making legal mistakes.
They want you to pay for that.
Do me a favour.
Loki I disagree. My aim is not to cause an argument you have your view albeit incorrect on this occasion.
Go with what you think is right, my advice is simple at no point agree to the change do nothing.
Unfortunately I've been in this game too long and I am 100% correct my friend.
If you or others doubt me then that is of course fine and I suggest you seek legal representation to challenge what has been agreed upon via a legally binding collective agreement.
You'll have an unpleasant surprise I'm afraid.
Having said that, members do have the choice to submit a complaint against Usdaw via the appropriate channels in order to seek possible derecognition. This, of course is an extremely lengthy, complicated not to mention, stressful process.
If you think I have gone along with everything that Usdaw have said or done without argument, protest etc, then that would genuinely sadden me.
Do we get to the stage of unhappy employees complain to there AO that the national officer has not worked in the best interest
Quote from: Loki on 27-01-16, 01:45PM
Unfortunately I've been in this game too long and I am 100% correct my friend.
If you or others doubt me then that is of course fine and I suggest you seek legal representation to challenge what has been agreed upon via a legally binding collective agreement.
You'll have an unpleasant surprise I'm afraid.
Duracell Loki is correct. Once the recognised union accept it becomes a "reasonable business request" failure to adhere to it would be a misconduct issue from the colleague which may end up in dismissal ultimately. Yes its terrible and its no way to treat staff but unfortunately once the union says yes, tosco hold the cards. Either accept or leave
I stopped paying into the union last year when the team leaders were hammered. Enough is enough. Since then, we've had no pay rise, the pension has changed and now possibly all what I read here may happen.
I'd rather throw a couple of quid the way of VLH because this site is a lot more useful.
Quote from: formerscoboy on 27-01-16, 07:54PM
Quote from: Loki on 27-01-16, 01:45PM
Unfortunately I've been in this game too long and I am 100% correct my friend.
If you or others doubt me then that is of course fine and I suggest you seek legal representation to challenge what has been agreed upon via a legally binding collective agreement.
You'll have an unpleasant surprise I'm afraid.
Duracell Loki is correct. Once the recognised union accept it becomes a "reasonable business request" failure to adhere to it would be a misconduct issue from the colleague which may end up in dismissal ultimately. Yes its terrible and its no way to treat staff but unfortunately once the union says yes, tosco hold the cards. Either accept or leave
Does this still apply if an employee is not a Union member? The Union surely cannot negotiate on behalf of the non-unionised staff?
Its not just usdaw colleagues are represented by a panel of employees from the forum who are our pay review panel who vote on our behalf.
I understand the scope in which contract changes can take place within collective agreements.
I understand that custom and practise can inevitably play a part in how tribunals and court of appeals decide and make judgements.
I understand where such agreements hold variation clauses, such clauses have to be unambiguous and be clear about any detriment to the individual, and where there are how they are to be managed, ( must be written specifically into the agreement at the time and can't be created during the process at the time of change).
It has been shown outside of the partnership that unilateral variation clauses within individual contracts and collective terms fail to meet the requirements of employment law because they need to be clear about any detriment to the individual which is almost impossible because such clauses are very often generic with no clear affect on the individual at the time of concept. Which in essence keeps individuals in the dark and uninformed about any proposed changes when they are being discussed and most importantly the level of negative affect it will have.
If retail are happy that all requirements are being met then yes they can and will make changes, in this particular case the implications are massive, from the research I have done and with the information I have gathered, it is more complex than a unilateral agreement can facilitate.
If you believe that all negative aspects of change that affect individual contracts are clear and unambiguous and were so at the point of conception in the agreement and not created and new at the point of change and don't give either side a clear unfair advantage over the other ( which is also a no no) then :thumbup:
In all probability any opinion I have or you have about the legality of it all is academic as to test it and know for sure will be reliant on individually sponsored tribunal claims, which is unlikely, at least in retail because you believe TESDAW can do it.
Smithwally all staff are bound by collective agreement, so if it ok for Union member then non members are bound also.
Loki , don't be saddened, the truth is out there.
A point of interest, I can quote what I have word for word but I won't.
The point of interest is, the partnership agreement being a collective agreement is NOT legally binding unless they are stated to be so under the Trade union and labour relations act 1992.
Which of course isn't the case as the TESDAW agreements in most forms and instances stipulate they are not legally binding.
So any argument that the forum processes within the partnership agreement has any legal credibility OVER individual contractual rights is a nonsense.
Where any claim is made that the intent of a collective term was to give rise to indivual contractual rights so therefore a certain collective term or terms then becomes apt for incorporation as an express term of individual contract any such express terms need individual consent to be changed, as being realised as an express term within individual contract it is becomes individually enforceable under employment law.
In essence, during conception of the partnership agreement was the intent of the agreement to be legally binding in, NO cause it clearly says it's Not . It's true nature is for labour relations and not meant to have and legal binding affect.
So forum process within said agreement has no LEGAL standing with regard to Individual contract change.
Quote from: Loki on 27-01-16, 01:45PM
Unfortunately I've been in this game too long and I am 100% correct my friend.
If you or others doubt me then that is of course fine and I suggest you seek legal representation to challenge what has been agreed upon via a legally binding collective agreement.
You'll have an unpleasant surprise I'm afraid.
No such thing in entirety the concept is a nonsense in employment law they are not legally binding unless they are declared so as I have mentioned, check your adaptation for your members it will clearly say it's not. TESDAW are not that committed to it to enshrine it in law in its totality.
Selective parts of it may be judge to be deemed apt to be included within individual contracts as an express term, such terms when established as such are realised mainly on their individual merit because of their specific unambiguous nature and are rarely cross referenced to other parts of the agreement.
General unilateral terms in collective agreements which could have an unrealised consequence but general purpose of mechanics to realise an outcome such as the forum process which aims to aid employment relations will not be apt as an express term therefore remains excluded from employment law and remains within the realms of collective agreement which has no legally binding intent.
Quote from: formerscoboy on 27-01-16, 07:54PM
Quote from: Loki on 27-01-16, 01:45PM
Unfortunately I've been in this game too long and I am 100% correct my friend.
If you or others doubt me then that is of course fine and I suggest you seek legal representation to challenge what has been agreed upon via a legally binding collective agreement.
You'll have an unpleasant surprise I'm afraid.
Duracell Loki is correct. Once the recognised union accept it becomes a "reasonable business request" failure to adhere to it would be a misconduct issue from the colleague which may end up in dismissal ultimately. Yes its terrible and its no way to treat staff but unfortunately once the union says yes, tosco hold the cards. Either accept or leave
There are staff who work just one day a week which just happens to be a Sunday. Is it a reasonable business request to ask these staff to take a 25% pay cut?
Interestingly, if you google, you will find that a group of staff took Boots to an employment tribunal for unlawful deduction of wages when Boots reduced Sunday pay for older staff from double to time and a half.
The staff won their case and guess who supported the staff to bring the claim to the tribunal? None other than USDAW and in the case of the pharmacists their professional body too.
Seems to be double standards within USDAW itself......
Quote from: burns2015 on 27-01-16, 11:08PM
Its not just usdaw colleagues are represented by a panel of employees from the forum who are our pay review panel who vote on our behalf.
But the panel of staff who "voted" on our behalf did not consult with us.... What gives this panel the right to vote on our behalf?
If we don't challenge this NOW, what's to to stop tesco repeating the exercise in a few years time and make *everyone* move from time & a half to single time?
Remember this also affects your pension as the less you pay in due to lower gross pay, tesco pay in less too...
I am not normally one for poetry but I think this poem is appropriate:
First they came for the Saturday premium and I did not speak out because I was not a Saturday worker
Then they came for the Double Sunday pay and I did not speak out because I was not an older member of staff
Then they came for the night premiums and I did not speak out because I was not a night shift worker
Then they came for Sunday time and a half and there was no one left to speak out for me.
In any case anyone is wondering what that poem is based on, it was Holocaust Memorial Day yesterday and there's a famous poem:
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
In simple terms Duracell, the pay, including items mentioned in my previous post, are bargained collectively via the National Forum as per the agreement between Usdaw and Tesco.
Perhaps my choice of words may have been misleading to some extent, as the Partnership Agreement is indeed a voluntary agreement. However, whatever the outcome will be regarding what is being discussed will comply with legislation much like the cessation of the Saturday premiums were. The items that have been collectively agreed on behalf of the members, will be incorporated within our terms and conditions and will be compliant with legislation. The new pay will then form part of the Terms and Conditions.
On that basis, the collectively agreed terms become legally binding as part of the individual contract of employment. That is what I tried to portray when stating that what has been agreed upon via a legally binding collective agreement.
I realise that even though I have explained it in another way you will undoubtedly disagree, however, my stance remains unchanged. On that basis I respectfully disagree.
Of course, any other Union would ballot the members as to whether or not to accept the deal on offer. However, the "right to ballot" on pay was taken away via agreement by the members.
Should an employee wish to take legal action against that which has been agreed between Usdaw and Tesco as part of collective bargaining, much disappointment will ensue.
If there is so much disgruntlement about the pay reviews and the way they are handled surely would it not be good idea to go back the workforce and ask if they would like to vote again and scrap the forums as all they do is except every thing that tesco offers without so much as a fight.
http://www.xperthr.co.uk/editors-choice/boots-unlawfully-reduced-long-serving-workers-pay-premium-for-sundays-and-bank-holidays/113629/ (http://www.xperthr.co.uk/editors-choice/boots-unlawfully-reduced-long-serving-workers-pay-premium-for-sundays-and-bank-holidays/113629/) anyone have the old staff handbooks handy
The Boots case is different as the decision made was done so unilaterally.
As much as I hate to say, this has not.
Quote from: Loki on 28-01-16, 12:17PM
The Boots case is different as the decision made was done so unilaterally.
As much as I hate to say, this has not.
. What does that mean !
It is my understanding that the official stance of company & union is that a number of reps will be briefed by Usdaw on Monday morning, with all reps briefed by SM's in the afternoon and that all information is embargoed until Tuesday.
If the information turns our to be correct being embargod doesn't mean s** t
So who leaks the information???
Quote from: Loki on 28-01-16, 12:17PM
The Boots case is different as the decision made was done so unilaterally.
As much as I hate to say, this has not.
so who negotiates the new contracts for those individuals not in the union ?
Quote from: Lithium194 on 28-01-16, 02:38PM
If the information turns our to be correct being embargod doesn't mean s** t
So who leaks the information???
No one leaked the information. Store managers were briefed on Monday. Burns found some info lying around and posted here. Although a poster did post before that to suggest that double time would be removed. This is a great site when accurate information and advice is shared. And can be a good vent for frustrated colleagues at all levels. But sometimes just getting a little bit of information is damaging. Once we all have the full briefing and q and a on Monday the implications can be discussed accurately. No point in everyone getting upset until Monday.
Upset,staff will be fuming angry all the money they will lose,worrying about bills etc,while those at the top can play happy families,
Quote
The tribunal reviewed the leading case law on reserving the right to vary contracts of employment. In Wandsworth London Borough Council v D'Silva and another [1998] IRLR 193 CA, the Court of Appeal said that, while contracts of employment can be varied only by agreement, employers can reserve the ability to change terms and conditions of employment. The Court of Appeal stressed that "clear language is required to reserve to one party an unusual power of this sort". In Bateman and others v Asda Stores Ltd [2010] IRLR 370 EAT, the Employment Appeal Tribunal held that the employer can reserve the right to vary employees' contracts unilaterally by way of a provision in its staff handbook that allowed it to review, revise or amend the handbook to "reflect the changing needs of the business".
The employment tribunal was not convinced by Boots' argument that, if the claimants in this case wanted to benefit from annual pay rises or discretionary bonuses, they would have to accept "the burden of a rationally applied harmonisation of Sunday premium rates entailing in their cases a reduction in that pay". The tribunal made a clear distinction between pay rises and bonuses, which Boots is not obliged to give, and a clearly contractual premium Sunday pay rate that is not discretionary. Year in, year out, the workers got the premium Sunday working rate.
The tribunal concluded that Boots' unilateral decision to reduce the premium pay rate for these claimants amounted to unlawful deductions from their wages.
The highlited text is a requirement of the indiviuals Contract NOT a collective agreement.
So the mechanics of the TESDAW agreement regardless of how specific it may be doesn't legitimise the change, the forum process as part of The TESDAW agreement is a process not a term so would not be apt for inclusion as an express term if it were to be referenced, and even it was as shown above its true and clear nature needs to be documented in the indivual contract.
Leading examples of case law show that where other sources are referenced ie handbooks and collective agreements they need to be clear in their intent.
The forum process is machinery within a collective agreement which is not legally binding in employment Law.
The TESDAW agreement decided it's best for those staff in it (in a certain area) to give up the right to individually agree. Those that were asked, by majority said yes we concede the need to agree.
A non enforceable under law agreement removes a contractual right under employment law.
With consent may be the cry, but still not enforceable, because they are so, FACT.
Was the clear intent of such a decision know at the time you conceded, I think not.
A simple trust that others would decide what's best for you on your behalf. Is what's proposed best for those concerned? I think not.
Are you so far disadvantaged by decisions made That you wish to realise the need to Agree? because you don't agree.
How would your waiver to need to agree be enforced? if it was decided within and for the purpose of TEDAWS agreement which is not legally binding because it says so and the view of tribunal is such also.
Even if a tribunal views the waiver to determine whether it is apt to be viewed as a contractual term for it to become a legal point of reference indivually it would have be clear in its intent, unlikely as the potential damage and bias it would create if allowed to be viewed and judged as such, it removes clarity, the very thing that has already been judged above as imperative in employment law.
Whilst your efforts are genuinely appreciated, the position that I described remains unchanged. However, you remain fixated upon a certain point of which can or needs to be addressed as a separate issue.
It is clear that the Partnership can be amended or even disolved as it is a voluntary agreement.However, once the pay negotiation have been agreed, that pay then is incorporated within our new Terms and Conditions as it has already been bargained for collectively meaning individual consultation regarding pay is not required.
Again, others should feel free to seek legal advice from a solicitor.
I feel everyone should look at their contract. Tribunals are a nightmare. I came on to this site to help people. You and others use words and phrases that make it hard work. Every employee has a contract go from there. Even a tribunal can go wrong in law
A bit like the terms and conditions of employment as in handbook!
http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/up-to-1000-tesco-staff-fight-massive-cuts-in-pay-34403472.html (http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/up-to-1000-tesco-staff-fight-massive-cuts-in-pay-34403472.html)
Iv put this on night closure aswell.if ya on a pre 2006 contract there coming mainland nxt.irelands a tester i reckon
Been asleep for a while?
I certainly hope I have and that the last 2 years have been a dream.
Bobby Ewing proved this is possible.
Turned into a c =ckfight :D
Boil it down guys to one or two key statements for everyone to digest.
Is it legal?
Can it be challenged?
Let's get a definitive 'Can USDAW and Tesco get away with the decision by deeming it to be a bilateral decision (as opposed to that of the Boots precedent which determined that the company used a unilateral move and therein undermining the terms and conditions of their employees).
What is the probability in real terms that the decision is worth taking to a tribunal?
Keep it in simple language assuming that none of us have a scooby- doo as to what the contractual complexities consist of.
I think (and therefore am probably wrong), that the fact that USDAW entered into negotiations, means that it is not unilateral.
If USDAW had point blank refused to even enter into negotiations then (I think) it would have become unilateral.
Part of me is sure that Loki is right on this, BUT i wish he wasn't.
In the Irish example i don't believe there have been negotiations, therefore, Duracell's scenario could take centre stage.
OK do your worst tell me I'm talking out of my Ar5e :o
further
I think that Duracel is arguing that USDAW do not have the legal right to enter into negotiations on our behalf [with regards to 'Terms'] (atleast not without our express permission) because our express permission has never actually been given (in the full legal sense).
And Loki is arguing that that permission has been given, in the partnership agreement, to allow collective bargaining 'the union' to be superceded by a mandate by usdaw members to use a representative negotiating team.
there i've succeded in confusing myself, so i must be on the right track ;)
..ahhhhhh.....now i just sit back and await the s**t storm. :thumbup: ;D
Quote from: optout on 28-01-16, 11:02PM
..ahhhhhh.....now i just sit back and await the s**t storm. :thumbup: ;D
you have actually made more sense . So because usdaw agreed it we cannot challenge it ?
The idea of the union in my world :P is Tesco proposes changes to USDAW, USDAW reports back to us paying members and then we collectively vote on what options are available to us. It just seems whatever Tesco wants they get. Who is paying USDAW the most money, us or Tesco. There should be no partnership agreement, a union is different entity. That's the basic logic for me from level of knowing absolutely nothing.
Titch
according to Loki's argument, YES. however Duracell is of the belief that USDAW do not actually have that 'genuine legal' right, or that our individual 'contractual rights' trump any right that usdaw may have been given (slightly uncertain about that last bit Duracell but thought I'd add it for completeness) as a collective deciding on our behalf.
Apols to Loki and Duracell for any errors
Ps it is the nature of legal issues that to be definitive and unambiguous there is a need to spell everything out, hence the long replies of Loki and Duracell, they were not done to confuse they were actually done to increase clarity. and although legalese does often creep in it is out of necessity rather than a genuine desire to be obtuse (by Loki or Duracell) ;) :thumbup:
in my opinion :thumbup:
it was deemed by the tribunal in the 'Boots' case that the company acted unilaterally in pulling the premium payment.
The crux of the matter in our case, as I take it, is whether the unholy alliance of Tesco and Usdaw have circumvented any unilateral decision and therefore rendered it unapproachable in court?
In the Boots court case it was USDAW that brought it to court, yet we may be faced with the situation whereby USDAW have agreed via the Partnership to accept the contractual changes and thereby castrated themselves.
Distribution staved off such changes. Why and how?
Tesco Ireland has raised the hackles of the union 'Mandate' who have raised the spectre of industrial action to protect just 1,000 employees . Again, why and what separates them from mainland USDAW?
The key thing is as opt out mentions is....
Does the waiver within the forum process have legal credibility
If yes, how?
It was agreed as part of a collective agreement that in its self States it is Not legally binding, tribunals and appeals judge based on this belief.
Tribunals have found that individual points within agreements and handbooks have been deemed apt to being expressed terms within individual contracts which then lead to that point having defining relevance, however such points of reference (from numerous leading examples of case law) are judge on their own merit and have been judged to need to be Clear and unambiguous to be viewed as apt.
This suggests that for your waiver to be credible legally it needs to be clear in its intent.
Was it? I find it hard to believe that the agreement facilitates all aspects and possibilities which is the clarity that employment law demands.
Another high profile case where consultation took place with a Union, business needs discussed Etc's, notice of change, changed happened, workers funded tribunal and won 2 years after the change.
Claim was they didn't agree to the change. Which was supported by judgement. Even though the Union were consulted.
The company insisted
We consulted with the union
They claimed that individuals agreed by doing nothing so it was accepted.
The usual method of how individuals EXPRESSED THEIR CONSENT was ascertained, a ballot, no ballot took place.
The judgement concluded that doing nothing is not itself consent as the inaction could be based on the belief that no action is required as without the mutual consent there is no change.
The usual method for individuals to express consent, ballot, did not happen, so the workers could in no way be judge to have consented to change, it ruled in favour of an unlawful defection of wages from the time of change to the time of judgement.
That case was bilaterally discussed through consultation but not legal as express consent was not given.
They key is your waiver which is founded through a non legal binding arrangement.
^^^^^
Unlawful deduction of wages, plus many more grammar errors, I'm tired I have been reading a lot lately.
Please someone tell me , how can a non legal, non enforceable term or arrangement legally deprive you of your legal right.
Thinking about it all, Only Tesco could prepare for the national minimum wage Increase... AND end up paying us Less... they're bigger crinimals that the theives that sit in jail
Quote from: Sweet Misery on 28-01-16, 11:25PM
The idea of the union in my world :P is Tesco proposes changes to USDAW, USDAW reports back to us paying members and then we collectively vote on what options are available to us. It just seems whatever Tesco wants they get. Who is paying USDAW the most money, us or Tesco. There should be no partnership agreement, a union is different entity. That's the basic logic for me from level of knowing absolutely nothing.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
USDAW IS NOT A UNION its a partnership agreement with Tesco that's all. People on wage negotiations speaking on our behalf are the top people in Tesco too, Unite union ballot their members, everybody is throwing their hard earned money at USDAW for nothing.
Ask any UNITE Reps they find it SHOCKING what's happening to our staff.
This might not be the right thread, be gentle with me if it's not. I am a former team leader and was one of many who was demoted last year. My question is, is there a time limit on how often Tesco can change your T and C of employment, can they do it every 3/6/9/12 months?
Double time payments are a terms and conditions issue. These can be brought out by the company just as they did with the Sat*rday rate.
You have to agree to this yourself, the union has no control over this, but always tries to keep this payment.
This at present affects 45,000 workers and will be eroded due to people retiring as a great many of these staff are due to do over the next few years. So it's plain that unless Tesco offer a one off payment to buy out your double time payment offering YOU personal terms this will not be taken away in any wage deal.
Each year the union try to bring back double time payments for all staff on a Sunday and the company always reject it.
I do hope this is clear to everyone as people do not have the correct information. The union always try to do it best but lots of powers have been lost under the Tory's and Tony Blair never reinstated them while he was in office, so much for New Labour.
Quote from: optout on 28-01-16, 11:02PM
..ahhhhhh.....now i just sit back and await the s**t storm. :thumbup: ;D
No s*** storm warranted. You have explained it very clearly. 👍
Quote from: OpShunned on 28-01-16, 10:12PM
Boil it down guys to one or two key statements for everyone to digest.
Is it legal?
Can it be challenged?
Items that have been agreed via the pay negotiations will be legal.
There is nothing to stop any employee attempting to challenge the decision, or any other decision for that matter. However, obtaining legal representation via Usdaw may prove difficult methinks. On that basis an alternative may be necessary.
Now, challenging the Partnership Agreement as a whole is where I actually think consideration needs to be taken. Challenging the Union by seeking derecognition is another option where an application can be made to the Central Arbitration Committee (CAC). This is a rather difficult process but not in the sense of it being complicated. Support by the required percentage of membership is obviously imperative at the initial stage which I surmise would be the first large hurdle.
The problem for me is that the membership are not balloted. This is the biggest source of contention as far as I'm concerned and has certainly been brought to light more so with regards to what is being discussed.
Again, I'm discussing the point regarding the process and negotiations themselves, not the items themselves of which I will not comment on.
Quote from: OpShunned on 28-01-16, 10:12PM
What is the probability in real terms that the decision is worth taking to a tribunal?
If seeking legal representation from a solicitor, that would be for them to weigh up the probability of a successful claim prior to taking on your case. Furthermore, I'll throw the question out for debate...
Would Usdaw consider looking, let alone take on such a case, when it was Usdaw that negotiated and accepted the deal in the first place?
Quote from: bigcheese on 29-01-16, 07:53AM
Double time payments are a terms and conditions issue. These can be brought out by the company just as they did with the Sat*rday rate.
You have to agree to this yourself, the union has no control over this, but always tries to keep this payment.
This at present affects 45,000 workers and will be eroded dew to people retiring as a great many of these staff are due to do over the next few years. So it's plan that unless Tesco offer a one off payment to buy out your double time payment offering YOU personal terms this will not be taken away in any wage deal.
Each year the union try to bring back double time payments for all staff on a Sunday and the company always reject it.
I do hope this is clear to everyone as people do not have the correct information. The union always try to do it best but lots of powers have been lost under the Tory's and Tony Blair never reinstated they while he was in office so much for New Labour.
so can we say no and disagree ? And keep our premiums ?
Quote from: Loki on 29-01-16, 08:21AM
Again, I'm discussing the point regarding the process and negotiations themselves, not the items themselves of which I will not comment on.
That is to say details of the items that have yet to be released of which are being discussed on this thread.
Quote from: Duracell on 29-01-16, 01:03AM
Please someone tell me , how can a non legal, non enforceable term or arrangement legally deprive you of your legal right.
Already have. 😂😂😂
In all seriousness, if I am to be grossly wrong about something, I truly wish it were this. But alas, my stance remains. However, that does not mean to say that I do not appreciate your opinion as for me, it has, once again, highlighted a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed - the Partnership Agreement and members not having a ballot.
If there is deemed to be no fight from the Union on the up and coming issues next week, Myself and the colleagues who have spoken too will be cancelling our union fees. The idea of Tesco being in partnership with USDAW, is just all wrong.
Without having all the facts until 02/02/2016,will this affect all colleagues including distribution? or just retail? Just wondered because they had already had their pay awards released late in 2015?
Quote from: Sweet Misery on 29-01-16, 09:05AM
If there is deemed to be no fight from the Union on the up and coming issues next week, Myself and the colleagues who have spoken too will be cancelling our union fees. The idea of Tesco being in partnership with USDAW, is just all wrong.
Deemed?
A mild word indeed.
I for one could not argue with you should you take the decision to leave and I'm a damn(ed) rep.
Please read my two posts in POSSIBLY Part of February Announcement????? (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15065.msg165706;topicseen#new)
Quote from: Loki on 29-01-16, 08:41AM
Quote from: Duracell on 29-01-16, 01:03AM
Please someone tell me , how can a non legal, non enforceable term or arrangement legally deprive you of your legal right.
Already have. 😂😂😂
In all seriousness, if I am to be grossly wrong about something, I truly wish it were this. But alas, my stance remains. However, that does not mean to say that I do not appreciate your opinion as for me, it has, once again, highlighted a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed - the Partnership Agreement and members not having a ballot.
With the greatest respect you haven't, you have just said its legal because you believe it to be so.
The principle has not been explained, the idea that a non legally binding, unenforceable process, can remove your legal entitlement has not been explained.
If the inference is it can because individuals consented to remove it, via an approved ( for want of a better word) process, it still is a nonsense, the agreement being facilitated in an arena with no legally binding power. A nonsense.
As mentioned before for such a point to be credible and even come close to apt for a contractual term which then gives it legal foundation, it would have had to be Clear the at the time that a legal right was being forfeighted, spelled out crystal clear. That requirement and the inference from all the information available under case law for the belief you support to be applied legally considered and judged as binding it would need to be shown that at the time the right was conceded it was clear to everyone what was being given away , giving up your right to vote would not be sufficient and clear enough The legal implication would have to be clear, then after that the clarity would need to be at LEAST referenced in indivual terms of contract after the decision was made.
I have nothing but respect for you Loki, so much so that I once sought a brief council with you concerning something very similar. Terms not being applied.
How the term was and still is denied even though it is in a document signed off by TESDAW , the stance was and still is, it's a mistake. The legal stance is that the document and point of reference is not legally binding and that the legal stance is what does your contract say in what did you agree to by signing that is legally binding (which happens to be what they say is correct and not what is written, supported by that is what they have always paid you.
We were both wrong in that one my freind.
So do we get a choice or do we just have to accept this . Will we get a buyout even if we aren't contacted for Sunday's but still do the odd one or two
No Fairplay it would only be contracted employees who would get the payment who were going to be worse off after July.
I'm really risking annonimity here, but I am so passionate about the misplaced power of what is being suggested it really does stretch the boundries of and limits of TESDAW moral compass.
So yes Loki I with other's have tested your theory some time ago, it didn't so much as fail but didn't really have a receptive audience anywhere, including those that support and are part of TESDAW in all its glory.
You see my personal contract terms that I signed and consented to was the defining point, enshrined in law, the validity required for justice ( it would seem) , even though I have a partnership sign off of something different.
Unenforceable, as my contract which IS enshrined in law says something different and I signed it to agree (having no knowledge of the signed off term at the time).
Even though through the process and belief like yours, Agreement says something different shows something different.
I hope this explains my passion to not let both views be correct, even though both views
are clearly practiced and documented as so.
It's a disgrace.
And believe me a very dear one to me in monetry terms.
I have no fancy words but my understanding is that even if there was a vote the 14% of us who are long term employees will be outnumbered so it will still go ahead , the fairest option in my eyes is to offer us redundancies .but they won't do that as it will cost too much ..I have always worked weekends , why oh why can they not just leave us few percent alone as most of us do not have many more years to retirement . I have worked those hours (which I still say are unsociable wether we are a 24/7 trading company or not ) it allowed me to bring up my children without having to resort to childcare and now I am able to help care for my elderly parents , as my siblings work during the week .
So much for caring for its employees , shame on you t***o.
Duracell
Although I will not comment or enter into a discussion regarding the items being discussed in this thread, it is evident from our debate surrounding the means and the "fallout" have truly been brought further into disrepute irrespective of our opposing views.
I think you know me well enough by now that depending on what is being discussed on this forum I can at times, be provocative in tone. There are of course legitimate reasons for my doing so but this is evidently not such an occasion due to the serious nature of what is being discussed.
Incidentally, my comment of "Already have" was genuinely made in jest in order to convey to you in a light hearted manner that we obviously disagree no matter how either of us explains it.
Another point, I do indeed recollect communication between us regarding a delicate situation involving yourself not long, if memory serves me correct, before I departed from VLH as Loki for reasons that I obviously cannot disclose. I'm a little embarrassed to say that I do not recollect the details of our communication as obviously messages and such no longer exist which is why many posts under my previous guise display as being a guest.
I cannot explain it any other way Duracell. In fact, optout probably summarised my stance more clearly than I did. On that basis, it is obvious that we respectfully disagree.
I would be interested in yours or other's opinions regarding my last question in a previous post.
Finally, if, hypothetically, the items that are being discussed were put to the affected members via a ballot and the majority who voted would accept the proposals, would you still hold the view that legally, individual consultations must still take place?
For those of you who work on Sundays, this post applies too...
http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15065.msg165749;topicseen#new (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15065.msg165749;topicseen#new)
Burns2015,my wife who also works at tesco said this photo copy is the ireland one is this true.
Sorry Loki I didn't read your previous post as a question but more of an observation.
No I wouldn't, I would deem it to be acceptable based on the fact that case law examples have judged this to be acceptable. It is a proven point of law not an opinion or a TESDAWISM, it's proven in law by being judged and carried in law outside of the TESDAW wonderland which I still have some faith in and respect for.
Although in that case it didn't actually rule that a ballot was enough, merely as one didn't take place as previous instances, consultation and collective bargaining with representatives (bilateral) disscusions alone as claimed by the employer was not enough to be deemed consent as claimed in the companies defence and agreement as those affect maybe unaware of the detail or clarity .
In a nutshell I think in that ruling the judge was dismissing the companies claim that agreement was given by virtue of the fact bilateral discussions took place on the basis that how can agreement be given by those that are unaware.
I would like to think that the ruling and case was just dismissing a defense rather that proving a lawful level of necessity . Yet ballot was mentioned by the judge and the claim was succesful.
Ballot was mentioned and it was carried in law.
Then by that, are you not stating that all "accepted" pay deals for the last 18 + years have not complied with legislation and therefore implemented unilaterally?
Quote from: Loki on 29-01-16, 01:33PM
Then by that, are you not stating that all "accepted" pay deals for the last 18 + years have not complied with legislation and therefore implemented unilaterally?
Loki, see my observations in post in:
http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15065.msg165761;topicseen#new (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15065.msg165761;topicseen#new)
The thing is with this partnership agreement, we do not seem to have had a democratic process where we can approve its renewal or reject its renewal or vote on changes to the partnership agreement.... Where is the democracy????
That's why organisations such as charities and businesses have AGMS and EGMs.
Quote from: burns2015 on 29-01-16, 10:39AM
No Fairplay it would only be contracted employees who would get the payment who were going to be worse off after July.
what about someone who worked every second sunday for 5 years (not contracted) surely they will also be worse of come july ?
Arlo we do that in our store but we wont get anything because it is not in our contract to do it,
smithwally
Yes. I have read your post and the Partnership Agreement has been discussed on numerous occasions that include points that you have made as well as many others.
I'm well aware of the agreement and all it entails and it is generally well known on here that I am not an advocate for the Agreement in any way shape or form for more reasons than you or others are aware of.
Having said that, your criticism of it is most welcomed.
Forgive me, but I don't want to steer away too much from the OP/topic by discussing the Partnership Agreement as a whole. More importantly, at this stage I'm not prepared to discuss the items that are the source of much anxiety on this forum for reasons that are obvious.
What Duracell and I are discussing are indeed separate, but are at the same time linked to what will be announced in its entirety on Tuesday.
In my sons store there are double timers who have worked every sunday, every week as overtime. They have not been contracted because the store does not contract sunday workers, other than check outs & produce & a baker. So these people will now lose out on the payout through no fault of their own? Basically a big pay cut with no compensation forth coming?
Quote from: Titch on 28-01-16, 11:11PM
So because usdaw agreed it we cannot challenge it ?
Quote from: optout on 28-01-16, 11:37PM
Titch
according to Loki's argument, YES.
Not quite. It is because approximately 18 years have passed since Usdaw members voted in favour of the current method of collective bargaining that excluded the balloting of members.
It is the exclusion of the ballot that I think Duracell and I are now beginning to close in on as the main point of debate.
Quote from: Loki on 29-01-16, 03:31PM
Quote from: Titch on 28-01-16, 11:11PM
So because usdaw agreed it we cannot challenge it ?
Quote from: optout on 28-01-16, 11:37PM
Titch
according to Loki's argument, YES.
Not quite. It is because approximately 18 years have passed since Usdaw members voted in favour of the current method of collective bargaining that excluded the balloting of members.
It is the exclusion of the ballot that I think Duracell and I are now beginning to close in on as the main point of debate.
Therein lies my points.
18 years ago, no one could have foreseen the impact it would have a few years ago on the saturday premium and again on the proposed sunday premium changes.
If the members could have foreseen or been told what the full effects would be all these 18 years ago, do you think they would have agreed to the removal of a ballot?
And do you think the members would have agreed to the partnership agreement being made in perpetuity and lose the right to renegotiate or to renew or to revoke the partnership agreement for all eternity?
That is why I think a Judicial review of this partnership agreement is worth investigating
As previously stated, the Partnership Agreement is for another discussion. My reply was for the benefit of Duracell with reference to our lengthy discussion.
Perhaps you ought to consider starting a new topic.
"Perhaps you ought to consider starting a new topic."
Sadly, he has not bothered to become a member,
so that option is not yet available.
;)
Quote from: Loki on 29-01-16, 01:33PM
Then by that, are you not stating that all "accepted" pay deals for the last 18 + years have not complied with legislation and therefore implemented unilaterally?
No
In a nut shell without going over old ground. (Too much)
The Partnership and its deals and agreements are not enforceable in law ( so how one would get to prove it to be legal when it says in itself it is not.
How do you prove the photo of an apple is actually the photo of an orange?
In my opinion and
I MUST STATE IN ADVANCE, I AM NOT INFERRING ANY DIRECTION TO INDIVIDUALS.
The legality comes when the change is put into practice. Indiviuals having contracts stating the change and they have signed them. Payslips over years showing the changes as they are introduced.
I don't think one observation a judge made " particularly if no action was take because there was a delayed effect to the change", wouldn't quite stretch to 18 years especially as there is rarely a delay and Doing nothing is not consenting" has its limitation.
So things are agreed and change, they are rolled out and they are clear at that point, individual consent by doing nothing with clear changes in place has to be a consideration.
If you didn't agree at any point with a change but did nothing whilst being clear about the change then I don't have much time for apathy.
They become lawful when incorporated without resistance when clear and in affect not simply because their inception was through a bilateral process which in itself states it is not legally binding.
Although I have used the term needs your agreement, I must aknowledge that not disagreeing when the change is clear is also a consideration, I have used the term I used because that is the usual reference.
So no Loki it's not, you were content to carry on.
Just out of curiosity, is it possible to know, or find out how many of your national forum, work Sunday's and nights?
That's a very interesting point.....If u find out can u share it on here.
Quite a few on Sunday's including some on double time but no one on nights!
If I accept a buyout of my Sunday premium it will be tantamount to acceptance of the changes :( If I accept 18 months worth of pieces of silver in advance, what tribunal would find in my favour, realistically. The 'boots' mob didn't receive any lump sum initially and were only recompensed following the ruling which ordered the employer to compensate them for the loss of earnings.
The biggest demotivator in all this (if it transpires) is the notion of working extra hours of my time for a single-rate remuneration. It just won't happen, period. They can kiss my butt before I do a minute's overtime.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tesco-calls-time-24-hour-7270483 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tesco-calls-time-24-hour-7270483)
Spread the word :D :D
Been busy with the press ;)
there has been some talk of tribunals on this thread in order to achieve some form of legal remedy.
But, would this be necessary, would it not be easier to go through small claims court after the first non-agreed deduction is taken from pay. :thumbup: :question:
I will carry on the debate Loki and I have here if the mods agree ( forgive my assumption but you have thus far).
Forgive any simple mistakes in grammar, I have square eyes from all the reading, heavy hands from all the surfing, and generally slow coordination from my preferred legal release from the mental torment and frustration.
Opinions from all are welcome.
QuoteHere, a key issue is as to the nature of the terms. In National Coal Board v National Union of Mineworkers [1986] ICR 736 Ch (a case on the incorporation of provisions for arbitration in the event of a collective failure to agree) Scott J (as he then was) held that:
"[there is ] a distinction between terms of a collective agreement which are of their nature apt to become enforceable terms of an individual's contract of employment and terms which are of their nature inapt to become enforceable by individuals. Terms of collective agreements fixing rates of pay, or hours of work, would obviously fall into the first category. Terms which deal with the procedure to be followed by an employer before dismissing an employee also would fall into the first category. But conciliation agreements setting up machinery designed to resolve by discussions between employers' representatives and union representatives, or by arbitral proceedings, questions arising within the industry, fall...firmly in the second category. The terms of conciliation schemes are not intended to become contractually enforceable by individual workers and do not become contractually enforceable by individual workers whether or not referred to in the individuals' contracts of employment."
In other words, a potentially decisive consideration is whether the term is one which relates to the relationship between individual and employer, or one which relates to the relationship between the employer and the workforce as a whole or the employer and their representatives. In National Coal Board v National Union of Mineworkers, self evidently the relevant provisions were not apt for incorporation as they established machinery for the resolution of collective disputes and therefore related to the relationship between the employer and the representatives of the workforce.
So here we go,
is the forum process that agrees " the way forward" an agreement between the individual and the employer or the collective and the employer? Is it a conciliation agreement or not?
So does the process of YOUR waiver (giving up your right to agree yourself) fall under a conciliation agreement or not?
I know what I think!!!
So miracles happen you have your ballot :thumbup: ( my optimistic world ).
From what has been said from the speculated unconfirmed proposals, far more stand to gain than lose, suggesting an
imbalance in vested interests of voters.
Tricky dilemma when encompassed and linked to what appears to be a pay award of 3.1%. which must be presented to all within the collective group. ( :-X )
Apparently if memory serves distributions Rafiki well ( old school human mac book font of all knowledge who is not me) the call for a change and waiver of the right to vote with retail was based on an
imbalance in a ballot which showed a very low turn out rejecting what was a substantial offer over what amounted to a trivial point. Hence the NEED for change was worthy.
My point being surely based on an inbalance which was defining in process change before, non- sun, non-nightworkers cannot and should not have any influence on those payments, and those not on "old contracts should not have powers of influence over others (able to vote) who are particularly if in the bundle they stand to gain from their decision.
Pay cut and pay award all in one negotiation and vote when the majority gain, could it survive the challenge of orchestrated bias?
Optout
depends on the claim
Unlawful deduction of wages = Industrial tribunal ( new limit of 2 years max)
Breach of contract = county court. or high court.
Specifically so.
The silence from usdaw says it all .
Last time contracted buyouts were made usdaw had zero suggestions or advice other than this" we recommend you take it"
That was all they said on the Sat*rday premuims buyouts a few years ago.
Now if true Big T is going after loyal and experienced staff wages , people who have paid union contributions for years then surely the union partnership agreement is nothing but a stamp of approval for everything Big T wants to do to its staff.
Here's my suggestions we all come out of the union stop paying fees into a body that is not fit for purpose.
An organisation that has no say on staff wage cuts is obviously a sham. An illusion of a union.
Quote from: optout on 30-01-16, 01:25AM
there has been some talk of tribunals on this thread in order to achieve some form of legal remedy.
But, would this be necessary, would it not be easier to go through small claims court after the first non-agreed deduction is taken from pay. :thumbup: :question:
SMC does not have jurisdiction to hear deductions from wages claims. There is scope for a breach of contract claim, but then an employer does also have the right to terminate contracts and re-engage on new terms to force the change. Re-engagement would mitigate loss, and would therefore drastically reduce any damages awarded.
Unfortunately the law can work in either party's favour with this one
hhhmmmm
Unlawful deduction of pay...... less scope for maneuver? possible sooner resolution?
Breach of contract broader scope ? longer process ?
Note to OPTOUT breach of contract can be taken to a ET providing you are no longer employed.
Not really something any of us want to consider.
How do we avoid taking the 18 month's worth of pieces of silver whilst rejecting any perceived 'unlawful deduction' of pay?'
To do so would be making our own 'unilateral' decision blissfully unaware that everyone else has potentially taken the buy-out?
No ballot, no chance!
Quote from: the rule book on 30-01-16, 02:02AM
The silence from usdaw says it all .
As nothing official has yet been announced ,then I can't see why Usdaw would comment!!
Opshunned
When you consider that any unlawful deduction award would have a limit of Two years.
So monetry wise, such a claim is unlikely to realise more than the compensation being offered, Coincidently cases seem to take 18 months to 2 years to get settled if the process is exhausted. Of course the moral victory of "unlawful deduction" being judged settles whether they have the right to do it how they are doing it.
Breach of contract is more personal between those named in the contract, awards can be greater. Outcomes aren't as defining as ET judgements as they seem to set preference.
Such tricky questions like you have asked need to be answered by specialists
It's at this point any action or direction (which is what your question seeks) needs to be done correctly via professionals in this field.
The legal issues arising from this topic might be better served under a new thread and perhaps lead by Loki and yourself with any other posts deleted in the cause of clarity (perhaps you could keep as much as possible in layman's terms where practical to do so).
I appreciate that there are crossovers, one of which is surely the infamous 'partnership' agreement which muddies the waters when it comes to things such as 'who would take any case forward' . USDAW appear to have agreed collectively to these contractual changes and therefore it seems highly unlikely they would turn native and support any case which challenges the legality of the upcoming (unofficial) changes.
Can't we take legal action against the national forum for negligence/breach of trust etc. - useless would need to get involved then
Opshunned
I am of the opinion that any thread created with a view of "leading" with posts stating what is legally right or wrong, that could end up heavily moderated, could be dangerous and should be left to site owner.
Debate and reasoning is one thing what you are suggesting could be construed as so much more.
My intent here is as it's always been to reason with opinion and the wealth of information available about what amounts to informal debate.
We are all afforded this luxury because of informality given by anonymity.
I wouldn't dream of accepting the responsibility of leading in such a manner, particularly as I am unaffected by the concern.
Reason and debate in a constructive manner is my aim, not to lead or guide, particularly with such a massive situation.
Going by other posts in the past I'm sure Loki will be affected by the changes is he not?
How many colleagues would the double time thingo affect?
How many colleagues work in store at grass roots level and possibly affected by the overtime cut?
How much more can this shocking company take off you before ya all stand up and shout no more.
Pension
Shares in success
Sunday premiums
At what point do ya say thats enough now
we still get shares in success.
Sounds a bit judgemental when you use the word You,
Have you left the company now Tasha
We had a chance with the pension to take action, retail in all probability were probably were looking to distribution as a voice they don't seem to have anymore, we were able to call for the start of a consultative action.
Where we (Distribution) were Weak... As most didn't even turn up to be counted (returned ballot paper)
So for any section to judge another on apathy is both ironic and sad.
We are all so.
Differences should be set aside, the implication of the speculated proposal and whether they can is Massive.
Can a dog keep biting the hand that feeds it.
A "Deal" that offers a pay award for a majority and reduction in contractual terms for a minority. Should never have been agreed to be presented, it's Heavily BIAS.
Particularly where mixed terms of employment apply.
is this correct that managers are keeping their double time !!!!!
if this happened in Ireland then i feel it will here,if it does then can we do anything about it...
i saw this in a Irish paper
Disgraceful: Tesco is about to significantly reduce wages of their loyal long term staff
Jan 27, 2016 James Brennan Irish News 109 8:30
tesco1
In what can only be described as a foul move by supermarket giant Tesco, the company plans to practically destroy the wages of their longest staff members.
Tesco is about to ask staff who have been with the company for more than 20 years to sign up to new contracts in a series of new personnel angles to save the company significant cash on their wage bill.
Staff who've been working for Tesco for more than 20 years amount to around 7% of the Tesco workforce but the entire staff is said to be "up in arms over the fiasco".
The new contracts will see staff being paid up to €3 less per hour than they are earning at present, that's a significant decrease over the space of a month, up to €480.
Tesco say their current contracts that long-term employees work off were negotiated at a time when stores didn't open on Sundays or late nights and thus are practically invalid.
The deduction will not affect those at management level who have worked for the company for a similar period of time, just floor staff.
Quote from: jelly on 30-01-16, 04:41PM
is this correct that managers are keeping their double time !!!!!
No,its been increased to treble time!!!
Quote from: jelly on 30-01-16, 04:41PM
is this correct that managers are keeping their double time !!!!!
managers pay review is not announced until spring.
if staff lose double time and manager don't can we do anything about it.
Quote from: nightcat on 30-01-16, 05:03PM
Quote from: jelly on 30-01-16, 04:41PM
is this correct that managers are keeping their double time !!!!!
No,its been increased to treble time!!!
Is this true?
No it's false. They will get quadruple pay, paid every April fools day. :D
i bet the managers keep their double time
http://theliberal.ie/disgraceful-tesco-is-about-to-significantly-reduce-wages-of-their-loyal-long-term-staff/ (http://theliberal.ie/disgraceful-tesco-is-about-to-significantly-reduce-wages-of-their-loyal-long-term-staff/)
Quote from: SAMCRO on 30-01-16, 05:36PM
Quote from: nightcat on 30-01-16, 05:03PM
Quote from: jelly on 30-01-16, 04:41PM
is this correct that managers are keeping their double time !!!!!
No,its been increased to treble time!!!
Is this true?
Oh dear !
Quote from: burns2015 on 30-01-16, 04:06PM
we still get shares in success.
We used to get 5% reduced to 1.1%
never 5% was always 3.6% for many years until phil clarks regime.
Quote from: tasha66 on 30-01-16, 06:07PM
Quote from: burns2015 on 30-01-16, 04:06PM
we still get shares in success.
We used to get 5% reduced to 1.1%
Can't wait till they are a penny share,then I can make some serious money!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:D :) :D :thumbup:
Quote from: Loki on 26-01-16, 10:12PM
Interestingly, The 2004 Annual Pay Review established the principle that Night Premiums would increase each year in line with the Core Award.
However, in the 2013 Annual Pay Review although both night premiums increased in line with the core award, the Company "expressed preference" not to use the pay pot to fund an increase to Night Premium 1. They claimed this was due to significant improvements being made in previous years and there being no issue in attracting or retaining staff to work late in the evenings.
Food for thought.
"Founded on principles fleeting and untangible as the winds and clouds"
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/business/thousands-tesco-workers-lose-hundreds-7279091 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/business/thousands-tesco-workers-lose-hundreds-7279091)
http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/8/6/Varying-a-contract-of-employment-accessible-version.pdf (http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/8/6/Varying-a-contract-of-employment-accessible-version.pdf)
From ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
QuoteWhat are contract terms?
The terms of the contract are the rights and obligations which bind the
employer and employee to the contract.
The terms of a contract can be:
•
express (those which are explicitly agreed between the employer and
employee, either in writing or orally)
•
implied (those which have not been spelled out but which would be taken
by the people involved to form part of the contract) or
•
statutory.
Is your Need to agree Statutory? Is it a lawful entitlement?
You have apparently Opted out of the need to agree as part of negotiations and the TESDAW agreement.
QuoteStatutory terms
are those implied or imposed by an Act of Parliament or
Statutory Instrument, eg: the entitlement to be paid the national minimum
wage or given a minimum period of notice. Agreements to contract out of
statutory terms are normally void under the law
.
Quote from: montyburns on 30-01-16, 05:05PM
Quote from: jelly on 30-01-16, 04:41PM
is this correct that managers are keeping their double time !!!!!
managers pay review is not announced until spring.
as a man who is clearly well informed any more redundancys coming??? In light of the recent trial in metro coming to a close something must be in the pipeline??? Keep us informed if you hear of or read anything lying around my friend!!!
I will be affected by the double time premium. Another thing in worried about is the multiskillind agreement that anyone employed pre 2005 doesn't have to checkout tribes as a multi skiller. Would a change in contract also affect this?
Quote from: Loki on 26-01-16, 10:12PM
Interestingly, The 2004 Annual Pay Review established the principle that Night Premiums would increase each year in line with the Core Award.
However, in the 2013 Annual Pay Review although both night premiums increased in line with the core award, the Company "expressed preference" not to use the pay pot to fund an increase to Night Premium 1. They claimed this was due to significant improvements being made in previous years and there being no issue in attracting or retaining staff to work late in the evenings.
Food for thought.
In that should I read " If you don't like it you can bug#er off and we will replace you with a few zero hour contract teenagers " ?
So is every one being equalised to the lowest common denominator?
No sick pay.
No double time
No time and a half
No night premuims
Not being nasty here but I have noticed over the years the people who are on the lowest contracts are not exactly the sharpest tools in the box. I am generalising here . I don't mean all the staff.
But so many can't even work out there own pay slips.
Can't work out holiday entitlement.
Don't understand how bank holidays work.
With out a doubt the staff are not of the same calibre as of the 80s and 90s.
The future of the big T is only as good as the people they employ.
Check the OurTesco website and you will see they confirm this change will negatively affect 15% of their workforce (50000 collegues) And that is according to Tesco themselves.
50000 very annoyed staff will absolutely destroy tescos to the core.
the rule book
In the 80's and 90's and previous decades, staff were mainly employed full time, and they were trained properly. They had work buddies and were not allowed to do anything on that department without supervision, for the length of shadow time deemed appropriate for that department.
Fast forward....new colleagues are now just put on dept. on minimal contracts and expected to learn as they go? So a new colleague on a four hour shift per day, will probably spend half, if not more, of that shift on checkout relief. Nobody has the time or inclination to show them what to do. Their manager is probably in another meeting, the ex T/L of that dept. refuses point blank to coach on principle! They have PDA's but don't really understand what they're for, or what information they hold? They just use the section relevant to their department, parrot fashion, because that's all they've been shown. If they were to ask their manager why do we do it this way?? They would probably just get "because you do" as the manager has never been shown different or explained to either!
Yes we have a couple of "naive" colleagues who missed the brain train, but on the whole, our lowest contract workers are a bunch of good people who are just trying to get a foot in the door, hoping to get more hour contracts.
Anyone who gets off their arse and tries to earn their own money, is worth my time and respect.
Can we request more contracted hours to make up the shortfall from losing the Sunday premium ?
You can always request more hours, but only if their are more hours available on yours, or another department. Bearing in mind that a more hours position will probably be based on a flexi contract.
This might sound pathetic but I am so upset right now . Very tearful today . Such a lot of money to lose each month when I'm struggling already .
Perhaps we should do as another union I was with. They threatened to boycott the company which would cost them far more money than they would save with the pay cut,
We have over 100,000 members working for Tesco so this would give us more power than we have at the moment. The company might take notice of this because it would cost them a lot of money, so perhaps we have the power. With the lose of wages more staff will shop elsewhere as their wages will not go so far, and we no longer have to spend the tokens in the company shop.
We are headed back to times when we had work houses, we are never thought of as even social house is far to high for any of us to afford, living in London never gets cheaper, location allowance has not gone up in my store for 10 years but the cost of living in my borough has gone up about 70% in that time. >:D >:D :thumbup:
Mollydoll
You most certainly do not sound pathetic. It is obvious that you have genuine worries. Is there nowhere local that you could pick up a second job for a few hours to help the shortfall? Have you contacted your local citizens advice with regard to any help you could apply for? Rent or rate rebate from the local council, due to your reduction in wage?
It is hard to offer helpful advice, not being an expert, and not knowing your personal circumstances. You really need to speak to agencies in your area who can offer professional advice.
Regulat pain this is only if your contracted other wise you get nothing even though I done every other Sunday for over twenty years I will be out of pocket big time as well as my pension being a lot less now . I am so angry at the moment >:(
[gmod]Please do not post ipad emoticons.[/gmod]
May have missed it, but having read through this thread as well as various leaked newspaper reports....
I don't ever see a mention of the Sunday premium being done away with??
I am contracted Sunday's, and get a normal single time wage for my shift, as well as the Sunday premium which works out at around £30 per shift. So 4 Sunday's a month would be £120 lost if this went.
Was just wondering as I'd heard of double time going as well as the night premium from 10pm - 12am, but nothing with regards to the contracted Sunday premium.
Quote from: the rule book on 01-02-16, 07:08AM
Check the OurTesco website and you will see they confirm this change will negatively affect 15% of their workforce (50000 collegues) And that is according to Tesco themselves.
50000 very annoyed staff will absolutely destroy tescos to the core.
Although the statement is probably correct in the number of staff affected, the percentage is a misrepresentation of the situation.
15% at 50,000 is of, total 350,000 staff. Which would be Stores, Head office, Distribution and all managerial levels, banking, finance, support network, and all subsidiaries .
Unfortunately the cloudy consultation hasn't taken place with ALL staff only the the consultative group in retail so, the true %.
"The change will negatively affect ** % of those consulted about the change." Would of be a lot closer to and Unclear majority than 85% suggests.
%'s seriously flawed.
It's getting to look a bit scandalous.
Jambom the specalition is sunday premium will reduce from 100% to 50%.
Contracted premium and O/T premium.
Whoever is getting the payout in July keep an eye on your wage. I m one of the ex t/l's who got the payout last year and they put it as part of our monthly wage!!! I paid an extra £800 tax & ni on top of what i would have paid on my wage and the payout (hope that makes sense). I went onto my tax account online and apparently I'm on £25k a year now I'm a ga. Just a thought as they will prob do this again.
Well security in my store will be no body ion Sunday's and bank holiday so free for all
Quote from: Freezerqueen on 01-02-16, 11:19AM
Whoever is getting the payout in July keep an eye on your wage. I m one of the ex t/l's who got the payout last year and they put it as part of our monthly wage!!! I paid an extra £800 tax & ni on top of what i would have paid on my wage and the payout (hope that makes sense). I went onto my tax account online and apparently I'm on £25k a year now I'm a ga. Just a thought as they will prob do this again.
i did wonder if that will happen . Can this be sorted with the tax office or is it another hassle to contend with ?
I don't fancy sitting on the phone for hours to the tax office so going to do a tax return in april.
Quote from: Duracell on 01-02-16, 11:18AM
Quote from: the rule book on 01-02-16, 07:08AM
Check the OurTesco website and you will see they confirm this change will negatively affect 15% of their workforce (50000 collegues) And that is according to Tesco themselves.
50000 very annoyed staff will absolutely destroy tescos to the core.
Jambom the specalition is sunday premium will reduce from 100% to 50%.
Contracted premium and O/T premium.
Thanks mate, I'm off to work shortly so will prob find out hopefully. Thanks again.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/10/living-wage-tesco-dave-lewis-aldi-morrisons_n_8519306.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/10/living-wage-tesco-dave-lewis-aldi-morrisons_n_8519306.html) DD is going too blame the cuts on the national living wage as he stated in this article in November
Quote from: mollydoll on 01-02-16, 11:30AM
Quote from: Freezerqueen on 01-02-16, 11:19AM
Whoever is getting the payout in July keep an eye on your wage. I m one of the ex t/l's who got the payout last year and they put it as part of our monthly wage!!! I paid an extra £800 tax & ni on top of what i would have paid on my wage and the payout (hope that makes sense). I went onto my tax account online and apparently I'm on £25k a year now I'm a ga. Just a thought as they will prob do this again.
i did wonder if that will happen . Can this be sorted with the tax office or is it another hassle to contend with ?
The maximum pay out would be around 1900-2000 for a person losing the double time as it would work out at around a loss of 25 pounds per Sunday.So Tax should not change for this.
Quote from: the rule book on 01-02-16, 06:58AM
So is every one being equalised to the lowest common denominator?
No sick pay.
No double time
No time and a half
No night premuims
Not being nasty here but I have noticed over the years the people who are on the lowest contracts are not exactly the sharpest tools in the box. I am generalising here . I don't mean all the staff.
But so many can't even work out there own pay slips.
Can't work out holiday entitlement.
Don't understand how bank holidays work.
With out a doubt the staff are not of the same calibre as of the 80s and 90s.
The future of the big T is only as good as the people they employ.
In my experience, this is typical of the snobbish attitude of people who have worked for Tesco a long time. This is the reason there's cliques on the shop floor. Why people don't feel inclined to stick together. It's a disgraceful attitude to take.
I've worked for Tesco for five years, and I've argued with long term employees asking them why should they be on a better contract than myself, I'm yet to have been given a valid reason. Obviously I wasn't round at the time, but I'd like to know what the general feeling was among staff when people who started after a certain date were to be on worse terms and conditions that they were. Knowing the people I work with at my store it was probably a "we're alright jack" attitude and stuff the new starters. Did you really think they'd leave you alone forever? This was always going to happen when they knew the long term employees were in the minority.
When I read the reports last night I was upset and annoyed, even though they probably wont affect me. However, reading things like this, and knowing the attitude of the vast majority of the long term employees I work with, I'm beginning to have different thoughts.
Remember its not the long term staffs fault they are on more money. Tesco chose to change it for new staff.
If all staff were also told they now are on flexi contracts like the newest staff their would be similar uproar but by a larger % of staff. The vast majority of the longer serving staff unless twisted would be more than happy for staff to give all new ones double time for sunday. Don't let Tesco decisions turn staff against staff.
Part of the problem your words are so true
Quote from: part of the problem on 01-02-16, 01:17PM
Remember its not the long term staffs fault they are on more money. Tesco chose to change it for new staff.
If all staff were also told they now are on flexi contracts like the newest staff their would be similar uproar but by a larger % of staff. The vast majority of the longer serving staff unless twisted would be more than happy for staff to give all new ones double time for sunday. Don't let Tesco decisions turn staff against staff.
When you see quotes like "newer starters aren't the sharpest tool in the box" and "new staff don't have the calibre of 80s &90s staff" it's hard not to get wound up.
Have now booked Christmas off they can stuff there Boxing Day overtime up there u know what.
Quote from: jonnythesaint on 01-02-16, 12:38PM
.......... I'd like to know what the general feeling was among staff when people who started after a certain date were to be on worse terms and conditions that they were. Knowing the people I work with at my store it was probably a "we're alright jack" attitude and stuff the new starters. Did you really think they'd leave you alone forever .........
If my memory is correct the scenario of new staff being on less favourable T&C has often been raised with union and the answer from them was along the lines that there was nothing they could do and the company has the right to offer whatever T&Cs they like to new starters.
I for one would have applauded any new starter who took the time to discovered that they were being offer inferior T&Cs, and on doing so turned the job down upon . Enough 'turn downs' and today things could be different.
"sorry, did you say you want me to do the same job as my neighbour for £40 less a week ?", are you NUTS.
Hammer10. Here here ditto >:D
Quote from: Nomad on 01-02-16, 01:59PM
Quote from: jonnythesaint on 01-02-16, 12:38PM
.......... I'd like to know what the general feeling was among staff when people who started after a certain date were to be on worse terms and conditions that they were. Knowing the people I work with at my store it was probably a "we're alright jack" attitude and stuff the new starters. Did you really think they'd leave you alone forever .........
If my memory is correct the scenario of new staff being on less favourable T&C has often been raised with union and the answer from them was along the lines that there was nothing they could do and the company has the right to offer whatever T&Cs they like to new starters.
I for one would have applauded any new starter who took the time to discovered that they were being offer inferior T&Cs, and on doing so turned the job down upon . Enough 'turn downs' and today things could be different.
"sorry, did you say you want me to do the same job as my neighbour for £40 less a week ?", are you NUTS.
USDAW saying "there's not a lot they can do" seems to happen a lot.
I'm afraid turning down a job isn't an option for most. Well it certainly wasn't for me.
I am seeing some two-way hypocrisy on here. Old-timers complaining about not getting support from new-timers about losing their more favourable T&C this time around yet where were they when the company introduced the less favourable T&C for new starters?
@jonnythesaint The real point was older longer serving staff were not happy either with the inferior T&Cs being offered to new starters, and it was often asked if it could be fought.
Did not take a crystal ball for them to see the possible future consequences.
@gomezz they were trying to get union to fight against it, but their approaches were ignored/turn down.
Not to worry just started as I mean to go on done my shopping at asda .
Quote from: gomezz on 01-02-16, 02:24PM
I am seeing some two-way hypocrisy on here. Old-timers complaining about not getting support from new-timers about losing their more favourable T&C this time around yet where were they when the company introduced the less favourable T&C for new starters?
Anger aside.
Under the procedural agreement, it is pretty much done via the two at the top for each side not even via the committee if there is no change to existing contracts, facilitated by the fact it is not changing anyone but the creation of new. So to imply current staff have any control over the creation of new terms for new starters is a bit niaeve.
I think we should observe a minute's silence in recognition of those poor USDAW reps in store who will die a death when given the floor to outline the positivity of the new pay deal, whilst having to bite their cheek.
Having knocked USDAW on the head last year, I still feel sorry for the poor buggers who have been betrayed by those at the top.
Rebecca E****
• 5 mins ago
Just goes to show sensationalism of the press, it's a shame for TESCO that it was leaked because the real information would have made the press for the right reasons. Well done.
??? 8-) ???
Where do they find these idiots?
Cuckoo Land I think!
Hammer10, nearly always shop at Asda :)
Quote from: OpShunned on 01-02-16, 06:38PM
Where do they find these idiots?
The same place they find the inumerate imbeciles who think that including £1000 of discount is achievable when I don't get paid £10,000 a year!
Must admit I'm losing faith somewhat. I have many years service and was disappointed when our share price crashed due to the poor accounting scandal, then no pay rise for the first time ever, then my pension reduced, and now this. It seems our past, present and future has been devalued all in less than a year. Am also wondering about our Union, only really a member because I know they have a big impact on pay negotiations. Would hope for some better news in the future so that new colleagues can feel the two way loyalty I once experienced.
@Monkeymagic, not poor accounting fraudulent accounting >:(
I never understand why anyone cares. Do a good job and it is expected as your norm every day. Do a bad job ditto.
http://www.talkingretail.com/category-news/independent-news/sunday-trading-reforms-answer-poor-christmas-trading-usdaw/ (http://www.talkingretail.com/category-news/independent-news/sunday-trading-reforms-answer-poor-christmas-trading-usdaw/)
http://www.christianconcern.com/our-concerns/family/government-to-push-sunday-trading-plans-again (http://www.christianconcern.com/our-concerns/family/government-to-push-sunday-trading-plans-again)
Tesco have covered their ass big time....
Quote from: the rule book on 01-02-16, 06:58AM
So is every one being equalised to the lowest common denominator?
No sick pay.
No double time
No time and a half
No night premuims
Not being nasty here but I have noticed over the years the people who are on the lowest contracts are not exactly the sharpest tools in the box. I am generalising here . I don't mean all the staff.
But so many can't even work out there own pay slips.
Can't work out holiday entitlement.
Don't understand how bank holidays work.
With out a doubt the staff are not of the same calibre as of the 80s and 90s.
The future of the big T is only as good as the people they employ.
I joined last year and I admit: I don't understand my payslip or how bank holidays work. This is nothing to do with my intellect, rather the fact that I never completed my induction and have never had it explained to me. The confusion being further compounded by the fact that the pay slips and bank holiday arrangements are the most overly complicated I have had the misfortune to deal with.
Indeed Lunamoonhare
I made my feelings pretty clear in my response to rule book :thumbdown:
Years ago we always followed the code of "share the knowledge" as nobody is born knowing everything, and it really gets my goat when a newbie asks questions to a longer serving colleague and receives an audible tut, or tries to embarrass them by not knowing, when they have obviously had to be shown themselves in the past.
Low contract colleagues get little or no breaks now, (unlike the 90min full timers )so how are they to build up a rapport, friendship, or just join in conversations where these things are discussed. A lot are very isolated in this respect!
If it's any consolation, not many people do understand their payslips or how bank holidays are worked out! As I can verify when I was a rep and constantly approached by new and old timer staff trying to figure out their bank holiday entitlements!! Especially if you have a wages clerk like ours, who c**ks up on a weekly basis, codes the majority of things wrong then tries to blame the manager for doing the exceptions wrong! And of course they never work lates or weekends so that's a good % of staff who never get to ask for any payslip errors to be explained.
Type in Tesco payslips explained.
Even on this site they have a PDF explain the Tesco payslips
You managed to find vle. But you can't managed to type payslips explained.
My wife has worked for this shower of s##t for over 20 years,,, 4 years ago she had cancer and could not continue to do her normal work ( baker ) as it was to heavy for her,,, but hey her manager found alternative work for her,,, unfortunately it meant contract her to work 52 weeks on a Sunday,,, so now she is told f##k you your double time is now single time ,,, lose £90 a month,,,, we at TESCO Plc will use this to pay for a pay rise to all the rest of the workers so it won't come out of our pocket,,, but hey here is the sucker punch,,, because we are relying o n the 85% not to back the 15% ,,, this pay rise is over 3 years,,, then all you mugs will go onto zero hours contracts ,, because USDAW owe us millions of pounds,,, because we bailed them out a few year ago when they almost went bankrupt,,, and we don't give anything for nothing... Work it out,,, you get nothing unless you stick together,,, oh and this year floor staff,,, last year team leaders,,,, next year guess it's the managers ( those ring fenced this time ) ,,, :-X
Husband of worker if she is contracted for Sundays and she is on double time it will go to time & a half. Still a lose sad to say.
Ok as a Sunday worker contracted with these changes in the terms can we simply drop the hours and no longer work the sunday.
Yes you can under the the Sunday working opt-out, but Tesco do not have to offer you other shift.
Ok, so how is this going to work in express. I'm contracted 5 days out of 7 and have worked most Sundays at D/T for the last few years, never liked it but told I have to do my fair share.
So, can I opt out from July for both Sundays and Bank Holidays and still do 5 out of 7?
It will affect our store massively and every other Express, if people decide to opt out.
I'm sure the manager will say your payment is towards topping up the Sundays worked at time and a half under the new contract and you will still have to work them. (What, work Sundays for the rest of my time with Tesco, which could be another 20 years for a poxy 18 months cushion payment.)
Why is there no option for redundancy, at the very least give the loyal, long standing staff a choice!
The negative affect of cutting long term experienced and loyal staff wages will be so detrimental to big T. They may as well CLOSE the older stores now.
Shooting your self in the foot is an under statement.
Firstly hireing staff on lower and lower rates of overtime and pay was the slimeiset thing they started.
Secoundly rather than bring down everyone's pay they should have brought it to the highest level.
Then we find out MANAGERS are still on DOUBLE time.
So its only the long term staff at shop floor level paying everyone else's wage rises.
The staff you have seriously upset are the back bone of Tesco they will find ways to get even I would imagine.
Firstly the cancellation of union fees.
Then saye will be cancelled
Then baye
Pension isn't worth a flying ......now so expect them to look for alternatives.
Sickness expect that to increase
Damages,waste to be higher
Negative attitude to customers
Lack of good will...gone.
Then the best for last... Welcome to aldi for your shopping.
If any one who's pay isn't going to be screwed over doesn't think this way then your a true Tesco soldier.. O and an ejit
@ the rule book
Management pay is still being discussed by the relevant people and they won't find out till sometime in the spring!
Knowing Tesco they will announce this sometime in April/May after EOY reviews have been completed saying you are now on performance related pay again!(they are refusing to answer at this moment in time whether Team managers are on performance related pay or not!)
If you honestly believe that managers are going to come out of this better than the long serving colleagues who are affected then you are deluding yourself!
Team managers are going to be shafted big style in there coming pay review!
Quote from: olive oil on 02-02-16, 07:13PM
Ok, so how is this going to work in express. I'm contracted 5 days out of 7 and have worked most Sundays at D/T for the last few years, never liked it but told I have to do my fair share.
So, can I opt out from July for both Sundays and Bank Holidays and still do 5 out of 7?
It will affect our store massively and every other Express, if people decide to opt out.
I'm sure the manager will say your payment is towards topping up the Sundays worked at time and a half under the new contract and you will still have to work them. (What, work Sundays for the rest of my time with Tesco, which could be another 20 years for a poxy 18 months cushion payment.)
Why is there no option for redundancy, at the very least give the loyal, long standing staff a choice!
Hi Olive No because Express contracts is 5 from 7 there is no opt out . ( Already tried that one myself)
this is bull, anybody has the statutory right to opt-out of sunday working, unless they only work on a sunday.
Ask for an opt-out form and fill it in and you will wait between 1-3 months (with tesco it's usually one month),
Any problems speak to your area organiser and direct them to the Working Time Regulations/Directive re Sunday Opt-out. this should be common knowledge in retail, Any rep or manager that is not aware of this Legal Right, needs retraining, minimum.
If you do this, when you successfully opt-out let us know, because it seems to be a myth that is hard to crush. And one way of crushing the myth is by successfull people getting on here and posting about it, and letting their fellow workers know about it.
they may well make a fuss about it, but it will just be bluster, it is your legal right and they cannot stop you, no matter what they say.
Quote from: optout on 02-02-16, 08:13PM
this is bull, anybody has the statutory right to opt-out of sunday working, unless they only work on a sunday.
Ask for an opt-out form and fill it in and you will wait between 1-3 months (with tesco it's usually one month),
Any problems speak to your area organiser and direct them to the Working Time Regulations/Directive re Sunday Opt-out. this should be common knowledge in retail, Any rep or manager that is not aware of this Legal Right, needs retraining, minimum.
If you do this, when you successfully opt-out let us know, because it seems to be a myth that is hard to crush. And one way of crushing the myth is by successfull people getting on here and posting about it, and letting their fellow workers know about it.
they may well make a fuss about it, but it will just be bluster, it is your legal right and they cannot stop you, no matter what they say.
https://www.gov.uk/sunday-working (https://www.gov.uk/sunday-working)
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 02-02-16, 08:00PM
Quote from: olive oil on 02-02-16, 07:13PM
Ok, so how is this going to work in express. I'm contracted 5 days out of 7 and have worked most Sundays at D/T for the last few years, never liked it but told I have to do my fair share.
So, can I opt out from July for both Sundays and Bank Holidays and still do 5 out of 7?
It will affect our store massively and every other Express, if people decide to opt out.
I'm sure the manager will say your payment is towards topping up the Sundays worked at time and a half under the new contract and you will still have to work them. (What, work Sundays for the rest of my time with Tesco, which could be another 20 years for a poxy 18 months cushion payment.)
Why is there no option for redundancy, at the very least give the loyal, long standing staff a choice!
Hi Olive No because Express contracts is 5 from 7 there is no opt out . ( Already tried that one myself)
Load of c**p I'm an express SM and one of my tls opted out... Nothing you can do.
Good link :question:
Also:
http://www.verylittlehelps.com/dloads/Sundayoptoutinp1.pdf (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/dloads/Sundayoptoutinp1.pdf)
http://www.verylittlehelps.com/dloads/Sundayoptoutinp2.pdf (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/dloads/Sundayoptoutinp2.pdf)
these are copies of tescos own opt-out forms, your personell manger should have copies of these.
If not, become a supporter on here (its only a couple of quid for a year, well worth it), then down-load the forms and fill them in and hand them to personell.
make sure you get a receipt for the form just in-case they 'lose' or 'misplace' it.
then keep working your usual for a month, and after that no more Sundays.
NOTE You do not need to give any reason for opting out.
Also Note: that you can opt back in to sunday working at any time in the future after giving some notice using the opt-in form.
Also NOTE that if you opt-out of Sunday working while on nights you are actually opting out of Sat*rday night-Sunday Morning shift.
this is just the basics, there are a few threads on here from the past dealing specifically with this subject if more info is required. :thumbup:
ps
Bleh (an express store manager agrees), what more comfirmation do you need.
IMPORTANT NOTE
You may want to hold on for a while until you have received any payments due to you under the double time agreement. (or non-agreement). :thumbup:
Quote from: Bleh on 02-02-16, 09:12PM
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 02-02-16, 08:00PM
Quote from: olive oil on 02-02-16, 07:13PM
Ok, so how is this going to work in express. I'm contracted 5 days out of 7 and have worked most Sundays at D/T for the last few years, never liked it but told I have to do my fair share.
So, can I opt out from July for both Sundays and Bank Holidays and still do 5 out of 7?
It will affect our store massively and every other Express, if people decide to opt out.
I'm sure the manager will say your payment is towards topping up the Sundays worked at time and a half under the new contract and you will still have to work them. (What, work Sundays for the rest of my time with Tesco, which could be another 20 years for a poxy 18 months cushion payment.)
Why is there no option for redundancy, at the very least give the loyal, long standing staff a choice!
Hi Olive No because Express contracts is 5 from 7 there is no opt out . ( Already tried that one myself)
Load of c**p I'm an express SM and one of my tls opted out... Nothing you can do.
Bleh, what happens if all your shift runners opt out of a sunday?
I'd have one hell of a long day, that or get a step up to run shift
And if they opt out? You can see what im getting at? Its a tricky one. I'd say someone who is employed in a 5 over 7 role cant really continue in that role if they want to opt out of a Sunday.
Know what you're saying still very little you can do to remove someone's right to opt out
To clarify - when somebody opts out a company is under no legal obligation to move those hours elsewhere.
If an express colleague opted out of a Sunday whose normal work pattern included Sundays then an express manager could then recruit for that day or pay another colleague to cover it. In my experience when I was employed at Tesco more often than not the hours were moved elsewhere. Probably a different kettle of fish now...!
But according to Gov.uk
'An employee can't be dismissed or treated in an unfavourable way for choosing not to work on Sundays'.
Surely taking hours off them would be deemed unfavourable!
No you can remove hours... Good luck finding a tl who wants 7.5 hours a week contract mind.
Rad
not just very little you can do,
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU CAN DO :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
It is the law and surprise surprise the law trumps tesco policy OR what a tesco manager OR higher may 'feel is right'.
Its a big world out there, just because things don't go the way a store manger wants them to, doesn't mean there is recourse to some sort of 'do over' system in the 'needs of the business' domain.
tesco would in the end have to find some way to incentivise people to work on a sunday, (oh.. no...they just got rid of that didn't they).
I am sure there will be staff from other stores who will work on the sunday because they need the money, or maybe agency will fill the gaps. or they may employ people just to work on sundays (they would be exempt from the opt-out right)
or if you are a manager who has the genuine respect of his/her team, it is surprising how much people will do for a good manager who they genuinely like and respect.
Quote from: olive oil on 02-02-16, 09:57PM
But according to Gov.uk
'An employee can't be dismissed or treated in an unfavourable way for choosing not to work on Sundays'.
Surely taking hours off them would be deemed unfavourable!
To put it simply the person made a contractual commitment to work Sundays. Its not the organisations fault that the person no longer wishes to continue to do this. They will not be dismissed for this, singled out, harrassed, bullied... etc. The law protects the colleague and allows one avenue/option of opting out of Sundays without leaving a job.
Ok, so in my case I do not have to opt out working Sundays, as I commenced working for Tesco prior to 26th August 1996 and the law allows me not to work on Sundays.
Tesco will therefore have have to accept that my 5 days are based around the remaining 6.
What do you think?
Quote from: weir-07 on 02-02-16, 10:09PM
Quote from: olive oil on 02-02-16, 09:57PM
But according to Gov.uk
'An employee can't be dismissed or treated in an unfavourable way for choosing not to work on Sundays'.
Surely taking hours off them would be deemed unfavourable!
To put it simply the person made a contractual commitment to work Sundays. Its not the organisations fault that the person no longer wishes to continue to do this. They will not be dismissed for this, singled out, harrassed, bullied... etc. The law protects the colleague and allows one avenue/option of opting out of Sundays without leaving a job.
That's my point, I never made a contraual commitment to work Sundays only to work 5 days out of 7. ( infact my contact says Mon - Fri)
As I understand it the contract stipulates your hours, unless it specified more than this when you opt out of Sunday working you do not opt out of your contracted hours. So provided hours are available elsewhere you should be offered alternative hours, that's how it has worked in my store for everyone so far who has opted out, although they did make them wait the full 12 weeks allowed.
Could be worth a stab in the dark. You could argue that you never agreed to work the Sundays and simply will chose not to (provided continuous services since pre-26/08/1994 employment) or opt out...
But - lets play devils advocate... (-*-)
You should be prepared for a 'certain type' of Tesco Manager who will not accept what on the face of it is quite a straight forward request... So! Assuming you have continuously worked the Sundays previously as part of your normal working pattern... I would suggest a Tribunal would deem it as reasonable to believe that you have in fact agreed to work the Sundays. The very fact that a contract exists that includes Sundays as a day of available work (5 in 7) that has been agreed to and shifts had been worked to including the Sundays would be quite enough to argue that you had in fact opted in to Sunday working. To stop working them you need to opt out.
Could go round the houses back and forth to be fair. It depends on lots of variables... individual circumstances, the contract, what the persons work patterns are, how reasonable the manager is, if anybody is willing to move etc. Difficult to give a generalised concrete answer I think!
Quote from: horatiocain on 02-02-16, 10:26PM
As I understand it the contract stipulates your hours, unless it specified more than this when you opt out of Sunday working you do not opt out of your contracted hours. So provided hours are available elsewhere you should be offered alternative hours, that's how it has worked in my store for everyone so far who has opted out, although they did make them wait the full 12 weeks allowed.
I think that is how Policies for our People suggests it should be done (forgive me... years have gone by since I worked in Tesco) and this is what a reasonable employer would do - but is by no means protected or enshrined in law of a 'has to happen'.
tesco under the partnership agreement, should try to find alternative hours, HOWEVER, nobody can say just how hard they will try, this is the downside. so assume just for securities sake unless you have a store manager (and personnell manager) that you can trust,that they won't, I am unsure how this would work in a 5 in 7 contract though. but you definitely cannot be dismissed for it.
there are a couple of threads on here that have dealt with these specific issues in the past if you try searching for them under 'sunday optout'. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
I think I will test the water when my manager informs me of latest changes.!!!!
Let's see what bovine excrement he comes up with.
Remember, keep the peeps on here informed (anonimity allowing ofcourse), because without feed back the myth will continue.
In the words of Arnie " I'll be back "
;) ;) :thumbup:
Now that we have been shafted for long term loyalty we say if we come up trumps with the lotto we will ring in sick for six months with depression lol
Just a thought, will there be any conditions attached to the 'lump sum payments' for those affected?. Knowing Tesco they would have covered that one!
Would I be better off waiting until after the July payment?
Any mention of redundancy as an option?
you wouldn't get redundancy a it does not fall under that as there is no actual change in job role. If you leave within 6 months you would need to pay back the remaining lump sum.
don't know, but when they gave the team leaders their lump sum it was unconditional, you can never tell with these idiots though, hence my earlier post saying you may be better waiting a while to see what happens. :thumbup:
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 02-02-16, 11:48PM
you wouldn't get redundancy a it does not fall under that as there is no actual change in job role. If you leave within 6 months you would need to pay back the remaining lump sum.
From my briefing with SM...." The lump sum is no strings attached " . Therefore by all means pocket the money and walk if you want to .
Be careful , to much pain and drastic might decide to try and enforce a fully flex contract next year.
Quote from: BANDERSNATCH on 03-02-16, 08:01AM
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 02-02-16, 11:48PM
you wouldn't get redundancy a it does not fall under that as there is no actual change in job role. If you leave within 6 months you would need to pay back the remaining lump sum.
From my briefing with SM...." The lump sum is no strings attached " . Therefore by all means pocket the money and walk if you want to .
Its in the usdaw reps guide. It will be briefed to effected people.
Quote from: Morris999 on 02-02-16, 07:56PM
@ the rule book
Management pay is still being discussed by the relevant people and they won't find out till sometime in the spring!
Knowing Tesco they will announce this sometime in April/May after EOY reviews have been completed saying you are now on performance related pay again!(they are refusing to answer at this moment in time whether Team managers are on performance related pay or not!)
If you honestly believe that managers are going to come out of this better than the long serving colleagues who are affected then you are deluding yourself!
Team managers are going to be shafted big style in there coming pay review!
I would Like to say great to hear that but unlike a lot of time and a halfers I'm not so mean spirited and my manageress works her socks off.
I do find however it's creating an us and them attitude towards managers .
Not the one team mentally they promote, my manageress actually thinks its grossly unfair to penalise one section of her staff to compensate another and leave one member of staff completely untouched.
Quote from: lucgeo on 14-01-16, 09:50PM
Sudden drop in all the double timers hogging the Sunday rota's :o the majority of double timers have dwindled in the past, and the only ones I know who do it in my store, are the close to retirement ones, who will gladly accept a buy out, to boost the pension coffers.
. They aren't offering a buy out
JCF
That post was written before the briefings were made public. It was of the time when all were making suppositions and conjectures!
Although I have yet to have my manager meeting regarding the new pay rates, I have today been informed, that any long term TL who works in Express and is currently on double bubble for working Sundays, will not get a lump sum payment as their contract of, 5 from 7, is deemed a flexible contract so no payment is due.
I'm not sure if this info has been correctly relayed or not, but has made me extremely hacked off!!!!
So what is the deal?
No that's incorrect every employees pay will be checked. It will be based on what you earned between Jan-Dec 2015.Then they will check what you would have earned for same timescale on new award. Then those taking home less would be liable for the parachute payment. Overtime etc is also included.
Well that's how I read it, but an Express area manager has told an Express manager today different, which has now been relayed to affected staff, that no payment is due.
This is typical Tesco, nobody has got a clue what is going on.
Express dude, is that just employees in express who will have their pay checked or all employees? I thought it was only contracted Sunday staff who were receiving a payout.
Quote from: Cuddlypup on 03-02-16, 04:54PM
Express dude, is that just employees in express who will have their pay checked or all employees? I thought it was only contracted Sunday staff who were receiving a payout.
I have the managers briefing guide and it says 'this review applies to all hourly rate paid customer assistants and team support/team leaders in uk stores and customer fulfilment centres, including any remaining section managers' So don't see how they can exclude express staff.
Thank you Claden.
Quote from: claden on 03-02-16, 05:07PM
Quote from: Cuddlypup on 03-02-16, 04:54PM
Express dude, is that just employees in express who will have their pay checked or all employees? I thought it was only contracted Sunday staff who were receiving a payout.
I have the managers briefing guide and it says 'this review applies to all hourly rate paid customer assistants and team support/team leaders in uk stores and customer fulfilment centres, including any remaining section managers' So don't see how they can exclude express staff.
Yet another ambiguous briefing guide!!
Nothing is crystal clear. >:D
So can we clear this one up burns originally said it was contracted staff only but our briefing and indeed the book itself tells us otherwise!!! Says all staff affected no mention of contracted only!!!
Quote from: Hansolo on 03-02-16, 05:49PM
So can we clear this one up burns originally said it was contracted staff only but our briefing and indeed the book itself tells us otherwise!!! Says all staff affected no mention of contracted only!!!
It certainly needs clearing up, as an Express manager has now informed affected staff that they will not be receiving a lump sum.
Quote from: Hansolo on 03-02-16, 05:49PM
So can we clear this one up burns originally said it was contracted staff only but our briefing and indeed the book itself tells us otherwise!!! Says all staff affected no mention of contracted only!!!
I would go with what the booklet says.
hi does anyone know how this will affect people on protected (retained )pay at sites such as livingston this was supposedly untouchable thanks
It doesnt affect distribution at all.
Thanks ...wasn't aware distribution isn't affected. ......yet
How many people have left the union ?
There is roughly 30 that i know of who have left from my store.
If we didn't need the reps so much at my store everyone would leave the unions, including the reps, everyone is sick and tired of having these guys as our union, they've become a joke, they offer so little support to their members.
As for the compensation issue, your pay for last year will be calculated against the expected pay after the changes, doesn't matter if you've never worked a Sunday in your life, if you'll be works off you'll receive a meeting where your compensation will be calculated, at least that's how it should work.
I've heard no mention of having to pay it back if you leave, I know of several long timers who are taking the payment then leaving to work elsewhere, and I can't say I blame them.
Don't forget it's not just Sunday workers affected by this all night staff stand to lose 79p a night before the payrise. All twilight staff who work after 10 will lose £1.50 an hour. Still can't get my head around them being able to cut our wages.
From today's Daily Mirror. Re Sunday longer opening hours "a betrayal of shop workers and those who regard Sunday as a special day " John Hannett . hypocrite.
What about the Saturday night staff who work through to sunday it hits them aswell.
Quote from: baldeagle on 04-02-16, 09:59AM
From today's Daily Mirror. Re Sunday longer opening hours "a betrayal of shop workers and those who regard Sunday as a special day " John Hannett . hypocrite.
Now that has to be a misquote or a wind up can't be true surely, but on second thoughts 8-)
I'm sure retail employees have the right to not work on Sundays. If your not getting any premiums going forward don't work them. :D
But financially you would be at a greater loss, as where you opt out the company don't have to give you those hours elsewhere.
Which is where they have you by the short and curlies.
I feel for the old timers losing their double time as they must have become accustomed to that wage over the years. However, as a 2002 starter I am equally upset that the overtime rate is all going to single time from the current time and a half I receive now. As a team leader s***** by Tosco last year, I tried to work one or two a month to somewhat lighten the financial monthly blow, and even that has now been taken away!!!! They have certainly targeted the team leaders in the past year!!! still I suppose we must appreciate the fact we have a job still............................
They may have taken the bread from our tables but there are cheaper places to go shopping .
How can the managers say with a straight face we are better off
I told my pm after July till the day I retire I will do no overtime even if that means no one in on my department
and this is why i have come out of the union. at our pay meeting, our night manager just kept banging on about our pay rise, which of course means nothing as we are losing money. i hope everyone does ok and you can all come out of this ok. good luck all :)
Quote from: chubbysweethead on 04-02-16, 07:55PM
and this is why i have come out of the union. at our pay meeting, our night manager just kept banging on about our pay rise, which of course means nothing as we are losing money. i hope everyone does ok and you can all come out of this ok. good luck all :)
The union come around the store every couple of weeks trying to get people to sign up, but loads of people tell them they would never join again, she does not like it. More and more people are leaving the union each week. It is a waste of money, they are in Tesco pockets. When was the last time they did anything for their members. An important issue regarding wages and we never had a say about it
The newspapers were all over the story of how bad Tesco have treated the staff but now they are not saying anything. Should have been the story of the week. Maybe they are worried about losing advertising revenue. A famous hypnotherapist has offered her help for free for people who are suffering anxiety and stress due to the news from tesco. came across this http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2826562 (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2826562)
The newspapers should be running the story more and more and get some justice for the workers. We are being told that the story that everyone affected by losing out will get a bonus but this is not true according to our line manager. Was told it is just those people contracted on a sunday. So, people working nights are not getting anything, that is not nice.
Quote from: sunshineman on 05-02-16, 07:47AM
The newspapers were all over the story of how bad Tesco have treated the staff but now they are not saying anything. Should have been the story of the week. Maybe they are worried about losing advertising revenue. A famous hypnotherapist has offered her help for free for people who are suffering anxiety and stress due to the news from tesco. came across this http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2826562 (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2826562)
The newspapers should be running the story more and more and get some justice for the workers. We are being told that the story that everyone affected by losing out will get a bonus but this is not true according to our line manager. Was told it is just those people contracted on a sunday. So, people working nights are not getting anything, that is not nice.
As far as I understand the payout will be for 'anyone' who ends up worse off after the 'pay increase'. Not just contracted Sunday workers.
Do the night managers who work Saturday night lose their premiums?,especially those double time managers?
Not been announced yet.
Managers get told in april
Hi there, was just wondering, as far as the lump sum payment goes. I was a team leader until May last year as all displaced team leaders were. In the annual earnings Jan 15 - dec 15 should it include our team leader earnings from Jan- May??? the booklet says your annual earning sunder he current pay structure jan15 - dec 15, however it is a fact that I was on a team leader hourly rate during that period so is it included in the calculations??also will it include the lump sum payment we received, I mean a percentage of it( as that was 2 years worth), as part of our annual earnings when they are working out the 5% turnaround bonus?
Quote from: claden on 05-02-16, 09:33AM
Quote from: sunshineman on 05-02-16, 07:47AM
The newspapers were all over the story of how bad Tesco have treated the staff but now they are not saying anything. Should have been the story of the week. Maybe they are worried about losing advertising revenue. A famous hypnotherapist has offered her help for free for people who are suffering anxiety and stress due to the news from tesco. came across this http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2826562 (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2826562)
The newspapers should be running the story more and more and get some justice for the workers. We are being told that the story that everyone affected by losing out will get a bonus but this is not true according to our line manager. Was told it is just those people contracted on a sunday. So, people working nights are not getting anything, that is not nice.
As far as I understand the payout will be for 'anyone' who ends up worse off after the 'pay increase'. Not just contracted Sunday workers.
I do not think the managers know what is happening. We have been told that even though we work nights, and will be losing around £500 a year we will not get a payout. I work nights, so i will be losing two hours of night premium.
Havent you had your booklets? It clearly states how working out bonus
Sunshineman as I understand things if you work full night shifts, and ignoring any relevant reduction in Sunday premium, your loss is less than 2 x NP1 per night.
This is due to an additional and 'new' payment of £2.21 per night if you, as part of the same shift, work a full hour outside the hours of midnight to 6am e.g. 11pm to midnight or 6am to 7am. So per full night and ignoring the increase in basic rate you are down 79p per night.
If I am mistaken then will someone please correct me.
Thats how I've worked it out to
Quote from: claden on 05-02-16, 09:33AM
Quote from: sunshineman on 05-02-16, 07:47AM
The newspapers were all over the story of how bad Tesco have treated the staff but now they are not saying anything. Should have been the story of the week. Maybe they are worried about losing advertising revenue. A famous hypnotherapist has offered her help for free for people who are suffering anxiety and stress due to the news from tesco. came across this http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2826562 (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2826562)
The newspapers should be running the story more and more and get some justice for the workers. We are being told that the story that everyone affected by losing out will get a bonus but this is not true according to our line manager. Was told it is just those people contracted on a sunday. So, people working nights are not getting anything, that is not nice.
As far as I understand the payout will be for 'anyone' who ends up worse off after the 'pay increase'. Not just contracted Sunday workers.
I read it that it will work out your earning sbetween jan15- dec 15 including premiums and overtime and if there is a difference then it will be paid??
Nightsboy several of us have asked this at our meetings, they didn't know but will try to get an answer.
Its all in the booklet!!! Ignore if you are told different!!! It states clearly ALL staff will recieve 18 months worth of premiums and it will be worked out of your 2015 earnings!!! Basically the more premium pay you earnt the higher your one off payment will be!!! I worked every sunday and several ot shifts in the week on a regular basis so im expecting a nice little sum!!! It would br good if we had a method to workout what we shold recieve then if we get stiffed come july we wont just settle for what they give if its wrong obviously!!!
i dont see in the booklet that it says it takes ot into consideration
i would think there basing it off your standard wage without ot included cause if you've done ot in between jan to dec 15 than obviously your going to be worse off cause they'll just be comparing it to a standard year under the new structure.
Your annual earnings for January to December 2015 under current pay structure
----------
Your annual earnings under new pay structure (based on higher basic hourly rates and new premiums)
=
If new earnings are lower, we'll pay you a one-off transition payment* on 29 July 2016, worth 18 months of the difference.
I don't see how they can base it on current wage structure between Jan 15 - Dec 15 when team leaders were on team leaders hourly rate then. They can't change the facts.
Quote from: nightsboy on 05-02-16, 11:16AM
Hi there, was just wondering, as far as the lump sum payment goes. I was a team leader until May last year as all displaced team leaders were. In the annual earnings Jan 15 - dec 15 should it include our team leader earnings from Jan- May??? the booklet says your annual earning sunder he current pay structure jan15 - dec 15, however it is a fact that I was on a team leader hourly rate during that period so is it included in the calculations??also will it include the lump sum payment we received, I mean a percentage of it( as that was 2 years worth), as part of our annual earnings when they are working out the 5% turnaround bonus?
Hopefully it will then you definitely will have earned more jan 15 - dec 15 than you will on a ga wage.
Quote from: Hansolo on 05-02-16, 04:57PM
Its all in the booklet!!! Ignore if you are told different!!! It states clearly ALL staff will recieve 18 months worth of premiums and it will be worked out of your 2015 earnings!!! Basically the more premium pay you earnt the higher your one off payment will be!!! I worked every sunday and several ot shifts in the week on a regular basis so im expecting a nice little sum!!! It would br good if we had a method to workout what we shold recieve then if we get stiffed come july we wont just settle for what they give if its wrong obviously!!!
You can work it out, add everything you took home from Jan-Dec 15 then work out what your wage will be next year after tax and NI contributions with the 3.1%
Quote from: nightsboy on 04-02-16, 01:16PM
I feel for the old timers losing their double time as they must have become accustomed to that wage over the years. However, as a 2002 starter I am equally upset that the overtime rate is all going to single time from the current time and a half I receive now. As a team leader s***** by Tosco last year, I tried to work one or two a month to somewhat lighten the financial monthly blow, and even that has now been taken away!!!! They have certainly targeted the team leaders in the past year!!! still I suppose we must appreciate the fact we have a job still............................
I'm really sorry but I feel zero sympathy for you. You've received a huge payout for being demoted from a glorified shelf filler [team leader nights]. You've then now got another pay off for the overtime you worked to supplement your income (of which you already received a huge one off payment for). Some people are just greedy, you've done extremely well from this. At the end of the day there's plenty of people who can put boxes on shelves
You my friend have no idea about anyone who posts on here, their individual circumstances, amount of work they do/did, and certainly have no place commenting on a passing comment that I have made when u have nothing positive to give. I have asked for no sympathy, simply making a statement based on how I feel. Bitterness breeds unhappiness breeds loneliness
All members have a right to post that's why it's called a forum. Just because you don't like my comment does not give you the right to censor me. Plus there's nothing else to do on nights but fill shelves?
I'm sorry Scoboy but I find you nothing more than as insidious little oaf who's presence here appears to be nothing more than to be frightfully annoying.
There's no requirement to be uplifting but there should be a modicum of empathy afforded to those colleagues who may feel aggrieved by recent events.
Whether or not they have been (it was far from 'huge' I might add) adequately recompensed for demotions/premium cuts will be lost on those colleagues who have yet to encounter Dave Lewis' Brave New World.
I find it extremely patronizing that you imply that any old Joe can put boxes on shelves. In fact I find it disgusting that you are allowed to continue with your poisonous comments at this particular juncture.
Colleagues affected by the recent, present and on-going changes to their livelihood deserve support and not the vitriol you appear to be than willing to impart.
Be gone you vagabond >:D
Well said Opshunned. I'm all for people having an opinion but a little empathy is required sometimes, wellthat's how my parents brought me up.........
Scoboy I've just read your post as regards the night shift. Are you joking! Are you a tesco 'plant'or what? I thought this forum was to help people? I worked my 'butt'for this company,and I am proud of some of the people I worked with.
Am I the only one that finds it disgusting that t/ls got a lump some to cover 2 years yet basic night staff only getting 18mths plus their lump sum is being calculated AFTER a payrise. Double timers were here long before t/ls
From the bottom to the top we all have the right to be treated fairly and just because we are the bottom shouldnt mean the company should be allowed trample all over our livelihoods with impunity. With Useless hiding behind the partnership agreement they are doing all they can to drive down the wages of their lowest paid workers. We are not the problem here and don't let anyone tell us otherwise, for starters its apparent that Drastic has no respect for the "little people", which is how he plainly sees us. We may do an unskilled job but that does not mean we should be treated like dirt. Lets stop fighting amongst ourselves and make useless do what a union should be doing - representing the interests of ALL its members. Remember we ARE worth it.
Our store manager was more annoyed that news had leaked out than way we found out. Hows that for honest and transparent drastic?
Quote from: dairyfresh on 05-02-16, 07:22PM
i dont see in the booklet that it says it takes ot into consideration
i would think there basing it off your standard wage without ot included cause if you've done ot in between jan to dec 15 than obviously your going to be worse off cause they'll just be comparing it to a standard year under the new structure.
Your annual earnings for January to December 2015 under current pay structure
----------
Your annual earnings under new pay structure (based on higher basic hourly rates and new premiums)
=
If new earnings are lower, we'll pay you a one-off transition payment* on 29 July 2016, worth 18 months of the difference.Quote
Their taking it off total earnings because some stuff only get double time on bank hols and so it'd be really unfair to just take that off staff who work every bank hol
Yorkshire Dave it makes me think we are going to get another nasty shock in 18 months time or there abouts.
Quote from: Yorkshire dave on 05-02-16, 10:27PM
Am I the only one that finds it disgusting that t/ls got a lump some to cover 2 years yet basic night staff only getting 18mths plus their lump sum is being calculated AFTER a payrise. Double timers were here long before t/ls
I sent an email...to union about my disgust at how we have been let down by them and one of the points was exactly what you have said Yorkshire Dave .
Why are we any different just because im a ga, should have been at least the same as the t/l last year 2years and the choice of redundancy too .
Unfortunately ,totally different situations as the T/l s position was got rid of ,hence the redundancies.They will only offer redundancy to the night staff in the stores where their 24 hour operation is stopping.
Quote from: nightsboy on 05-02-16, 11:16AM
Hi there, was just wondering, as far as the lump sum payment goes. I was a team leader until May last year as all displaced team leaders were. In the annual earnings Jan 15 - dec 15 should it include our team leader earnings from Jan- May??? the booklet says your annual earning sunder he current pay structure jan15 - dec 15, however it is a fact that I was on a team leader hourly rate during that period so is it included in the calculations??also will it include the lump sum payment we received, I mean a percentage of it( as that was 2 years worth), as part of our annual earnings when they are working out the 5% turnaround bonus?
Going back to this, and all bad feeling removed, am I correct or not?
Quote from: Yorkshire dave on 05-02-16, 10:27PM
Am I the only one that finds it disgusting that t/ls got a lump some to cover 2 years yet basic night staff only getting 18mths plus their lump sum is being calculated AFTER a payrise. Double timers were here long before t/ls
I did ask my PM and union rep in my briefing and neither could give me an explanation. It's discrimination as far as I'm concerned and I totally agree about the team leaders not having been around for that long and in my store most of them were relatively young, unlike us with long service who are on the whole,the older members of staff . Less money now to put in our pension so poorer when we retire . That's loyalty for you .
Quote from: formerscoboy on 05-02-16, 08:26PM
Quote from: nightsboy on 04-02-16, 01:16PM
I feel for the old timers losing their double time as they must have become accustomed to that wage over the years. However, as a 2002 starter I am equally upset that the overtime rate is all going to single time from the current time and a half I receive now. As a team leader s***** by Tosco last year, I tried to work one or two a month to somewhat lighten the financial monthly blow, and even that has now been taken away!!!! They have certainly targeted the team leaders in the past year!!! still I suppose we must appreciate the fact we have a job still............................
I'm really sorry but I feel zero sympathy for you. You've received a huge payout for being demoted from a glorified shelf filler [team leader nights]. You've then now got another pay off for the overtime you worked to supplement your income (of which you already received a huge one off payment for). Some people are just greedy, you've done extremely well from this. At the end of the day there's plenty of people who can put boxes on shelves
(-*-)you need to fill on nights them you'd no wot work is
I've worked on nights as a ga, and as a tl and 3 months as lead night. I've also managed stock c, produce, compliance, dairy and grocery. I've been deputy and now I'm store. I've worked up from 20 hr frozen boy I know how to fill.
[admin]Posts made with the sole intention of 'flaming' other members may be deleted. [/admin]
I fail to see why comparisons are being made against this and the T/L situation.
T/L's lost their jobs, this is about loss of premiums. 2 completely different things.
Just a thought.
When were TLs dispersed?
Are the people that were re contracted from being TLs now affected by the recent change?
I ask with unsureness of the timeframe between the 2 events.
I was once part of a collective greivance where a group of workers were negotiated with to make a change.. The change was made.
The grievance came about because the same group were targeted for a 2nd time to yet again change, whilst other groups were left unaffected.
The Grievance was based on the second request being unreasonable on the basis that they had only quite recently changed and other groups who could also "make a difference" were left unaffected.
The greivance was succesful albeit at local level.
Quote from: Duracell on 06-02-16, 10:02AM
Just a thought.
When were TLs dispersed?
Are the people that were re contracted from being TLs now affected by the recent change?
I ask with unsureness of the timeframe between the 2 events.
I was once part of a collective greivance where a group of workers were negotiated with to make a change.. The change was made.
The grievance came about because the same group were targeted for a 2nd time to yet again change, whilst other groups were left unaffected.
The Grievance was based on the second request being unreasonable on the basis that they had only quite recently changed and other groups who could also "make a difference" were left unaffected.
The greivance was succesful albeit at local level.
I'm being affected twice 😞
Quote from: wellhereiam on 06-02-16, 09:48AM
I fail to see why comparisons are being made against this and the T/L situation.
T/L's lost their jobs, this is about loss of premiums. 2 completely different things.
team leaders still have full time jobs albeit as GAs with no responsibilities and were given a two year pay out which was a good sum of money . The team leader role wasn't around that long whereas people on the old contracts have been doing their job roles for a long time and we will now be doing the same job and hours for less money . It's total discrimination on older employees . Team leaders were also offered redundancy and we weren't which is totally unfair because a lot of us are at an age where we would have taken it .
Yep I also thinks its discrimination on older workers why weren't we offered redundancy because they new we would take it . Don't know why we had team leaders anyway it caused a lot of resentment among staff glad they have now gone they were very lucky to have received the lump sum of money now they will receive more 😡
Redundancy is where there is loss of job due to the job becoming obsolete. Just because your losing part of your premium does not give you right for this. You are being compensated for next 18 months so if you do not like it you have 18 months to find a new job. You talk about the team leaders but in Express we lost our bonus which was an average loss to each employee of 10-15%. Did you hear us cry like babies because of it NO .At least you still have jobs.
Quote from: Kendodd on 06-02-16, 10:23AM
Quote from: Duracell on 06-02-16, 10:02AM
Just a thought.
When were TLs dispersed?
Are the people that were re contracted from being TLs now affected by the recent change?
I ask with unsureness of the timeframe between the 2 events.
I was once part of a collective greivance where a group of workers were negotiated with to make a change.. The change was made.
The grievance came about because the same group were targeted for a 2nd time to yet again change, whilst other groups were left unaffected.
The Grievance was based on the second request being unreasonable on the basis that they had only quite recently changed and other groups who could also "make a difference" were left unaffected.
The greivance was succesful albeit at local level.
I'm being affected twice 😞
I have been affected twice, how many times can they change your contract? I will be taking a grievance out xxx
Well we have never had a bonus to loose so weren't you the lucky ones . After twenty years loyal employment we should be entitled to feel unhappy about the way we've been treated. We won't have time to make up our funds into the new pension. pension that we were promised is now closed do I guess that's why staff are peed off
Quote from: Fair play on 06-02-16, 02:01PM
Well we have never had a bonus to loose so weren't you the lucky ones . After twenty years loyal employment we should be entitled to feel unhappy about the way we've been treated. We won't have time to make up our funds into the new pension. pension that we were promised is now closed do I guess that's why staff are peed off
we are in the minority so the majority will never understand why we are so unhappy . Most of us on the old contracts are very concerned about our pensions and the fact that we will now have less if any money left to pay into them . I am finding it very difficult to understand how they can get away with giving us such a huge pay cut . And we don't need others slating us when all we have done is work hard and be loyal for many years . It is not our fault that when we were employed that we were on these contracts . We joined the firm when employees were cared for and respected and now no one could give a s**t about us .
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 06-02-16, 12:37PM
Redundancy is where there is loss of job due to the job becoming obsolete. Just because your losing part of your premium does not give you right for this. You are being compensated for next 18 months so if you do not like it you have 18 months to find a new job. You talk about the team leaders but in Express we lost our bonus which was an average loss to each employee of 10-15%. Did you hear us cry like babies because of it NO .At least you still have jobs.
And you still had jobs and a two year pay out .You were not expected to work the same job and hours for less money . Don't be so insulting to staff that have worked long and hard for this company . For us the loss of money means less into our pensions which means we could be facing poverty when we retire . Have some respect .
No offence we are all looking at poverty and don't forget you now get paid the same as the rest of the workers.
Quote from: nightsboy on 05-02-16, 11:16AM
Hi there, was just wondering, as far as the lump sum payment goes. I was a team leader until May last year as all displaced team leaders were. In the annual earnings Jan 15 - dec 15 should it include our team leader earnings from Jan- May??? the booklet says your annual earning sunder he current pay structure jan15 - dec 15, however it is a fact that I was on a team leader hourly rate during that period so is it included in the calculations??also will it include the lump sum payment we received, I mean a percentage of it( as that was 2 years worth), as part of our annual earnings when they are working out the 5% turnaround bonus?
So can anyone answer this???am I right or not???
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 03:21PM
Quote from: nightsboy on 05-02-16, 11:16AM
Hi there, was just wondering, as far as the lump sum payment goes. I was a team leader until May last year as all displaced team leaders were. In the annual earnings Jan 15 - dec 15 should it include our team leader earnings from Jan- May??? the booklet says your annual earning sunder he current pay structure jan15 - dec 15, however it is a fact that I was on a team leader hourly rate during that period so is it included in the calculations??also will it include the lump sum payment we received, I mean a percentage of it( as that was 2 years worth), as part of our annual earnings when they are working out the 5% turnaround bonus?
So can anyone answer this???am I right or not???
its worked out on current rate
But the fact is I wasn't on current rate between Jan and may 2015. And the lump sum we received was for May 15- May 17????
It does not matter its states it will be reviewed on your current hourly rate
That is fair enough but I can't see how the company can change the bare facts that team leaders were onteam leader rate through the period Jan-May 15. It is what it is but makes u think how on earth usdaw agreed to current rate. Just a personal opinion that's all.....
Quote from: spooner on 06-02-16, 02:37PM
we are in the minority so the majority will never understand why we are so unhappy . Most of us on the old contracts are very concerned about our pensions and the fact that we will now have less if any money left to pay into them . I am finding it very difficult to understand how they can get away with giving us such a huge pay cut . And we don't need others slating us when all we have done is work hard and be loyal for many years . It is not our fault that when we were employed that we were on these contracts . We joined the firm when employees were cared for and respected and now no one could give a s**t about us .
Totally agree with Spooner! I am not one of those on double time but am fully supporting a group of my colleagues that are. In the next few days they are going to raise a collective grievance on the grounds that this is grossly unfair! USDAW or no USDAW this will be pursued to the limits of their capabilities. I strongly advise others to do the same! Stop whinging and take some action against this! Don't just accept it as a "done deal"
Their is talk of a collective grievance being raised on a Facebook page for usdaw members. When I last looked it was gathering some momentum nationwide.
Quote from: daftjoe on 06-02-16, 04:29PM
Quote from: spooner on 06-02-16, 02:37PM
we are in the minority so the majority will never understand why we are so unhappy . Most of us on the old contracts are very concerned about our pensions and the fact that we will now have less if any money left to pay into them . I am finding it very difficult to understand how they can get away with giving us such a huge pay cut . And we don't need others slating us when all we have done is work hard and be loyal for many years . It is not our fault that when we were employed that we were on these contracts . We joined the firm when employees were cared for and respected and now no one could give a s**t about us ]
Totally agree with Spooner! I am not one of those on double time but am fully supporting a group of my colleagues that are. In the next few days they are going to raise a collective grievance on the grounds that this is grossly unfair! USDAW or no USDAW this will be pursued to the limits of their capabilities. I strongly advise others to do the same! Stop whinging and take some action against this! Don't just accept it as a "done deal"
thanks for your support and agreeing with me . Who are your colleagues raising their grievance with , usdaw , Tesco or both ? As I would like to do this in my store .
Quote from: renown on 06-02-16, 04:48PM
Their is talk of a collective grievance being raised on a Facebook page for usdaw members. When I last looked it was gathering some momentum nationwide.
what is the page / group called ?
Or is there a link ,on the issue of our old contracts if I broke the terms of it iam sure the company would be throwing its toys out of the pram !
USDAW for all Tesco staff. Be aware it is a closed group. You will need to identify yourself honestly before being allowed access. You cannot remain anonymous.
Be careful is all I am prepared to say.
Quote from: spooner on 06-02-16, 04:56PM
thanks for your support and agreeing with me . Who are your colleagues raising their grievance with , usdaw , Tesco or both ? As I would like to do this in my store .
Starting with Tesco but could easily escalate to both if USDAW don't support us (which is unlikely). The facebook group is "USDAW for all Tesco Staff" A single national grievance would be the best way but a nightmare to coordinate!
Thanks
I'm glad to see that objection to the change is gathering momentum and will be official.
I am a Distribution worker, but as I have made clear, all information available suggests that legally they can't do it.
It's so heavily bias, you are being denied your legal right to reject a change to your individual contracts.
The only things supporting that they can do it is because they say they can which simply doesn't hold any credibility.
Sometimes I wish I was a store worker.
Quote from: Duracell on 06-02-16, 06:19PM
I'm glad to see that objection to the change is gathering momentum and will be official.
I am a Distribution worker, but as I have made clear, all information available suggests that legally they can't do it.
It's so heavily bias, you are being denied your legal right to reject a change to your individual contracts.
The only things supporting that they can do it is because they say they can which simply doesn't hold any credibility.
Sometimes I wish I was a store worker.
so should the collective grievance be given to Tesco first and then Usdaw ? And if so who should it be given to at Tesco ?
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 03:27PM
But the fact is I wasn't on current rate between Jan and may 2015. And the lump sum we received was for May 15- May 17????
Your salary from last year will be based on your take home pay between jan 15 -dec 15 that is what they will base whether or not you get a payout.
that's my point Claden, between jan15- dec 15 I was on team leader rate, however it states that it will be based on current rate which I believe cant be right since its a FACT I was on team leader rate from jan15 to may15???
Quote from: Kendodd on 06-02-16, 10:23AM
Quote from: Duracell on 06-02-16, 10:02AM
Just a thought.
When were TLs dispersed?
Are the people that were re contracted from being TLs now affected by the recent change?
I ask with unsureness of the timeframe between the 2 events.
I was once part of a collective greivance where a group of workers were negotiated with to make a change.. The change was made.
The grievance came about because the same group were targeted for a 2nd time to yet again change, whilst other groups were left unaffected.
The Grievance was based on the second request being unreasonable on the basis that they had only quite recently changed and other groups who could also "make a difference" were left unaffected.
The greivance was succesful albeit at local level.
I'm being affected twice 😞
your obviously a previous team leader, have u worked out that u will get a lump sum kendodd
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 06:58PM
that's my point Claden, between jan15- dec 15 I was on team leader rate, however it states that it will be based on current rate which I believe cant be right since its a FACT I was on team leader rate from jan15 to may15???
Yawn....Did you not get paid off for losing your team leadership ? Your compensation should be calculated on GA rate . Talk about wanting your cake and eat it ! You seem to want compensating twice for not being a team leader , that won't be happening.
my compensation should be based on GA rate because you wasn't a team leader right???talk about bitter!!hahahaha!!my previous lump sum was based may 15 to may 17 and as this is calculated 5 months previous to that when I was on a team leader rate surely I should be getting the rate I was contractally on. they could have said may 15 - may16 so there wouldn't been any grey area right??
There is no grey area except that you seem to want compensating twice over the loss of team leader . I have / have never had any desire to be a team leader by the way.
Just so greedy . A good two year payout and now wanting more . Whereas just 18months for us that have helped to build up this company from the early days .
nothing greedy about seeking out everything you are entitled to from a company that I have been with from the start like yourself, if u never had the balls to work your way up the ladder, and not get a payout yourself, then that's my fault is it??????good day sir!!!
Never wanted to work my way up . And to be honest getting to team leader wasn't exactly that far up . ;D
Been with the company from the start and a team leader already ! High flyer eh ? With your no doubt heightened intelligence as is needed to reach the dizzying heights of section managers lackey how can you not grasp that when yo became just one of the s*** like me again in the restructure you started again on a GA contract , you have been compensated for losing your highly powerful and exalted previous job and if you think you are getting compensated for that again well dream on.
I may be one of the s*** like u at work, but definitely not one of u on social media, enjoy your evening..................
Quote from: spooner on 06-02-16, 06:25PM
so should the collective grievance be given to Tesco first and then Usdaw ? And if so who should it be given to at Tesco ?
In the first Instance we intend to give it to our PM. They should know what to do with it or at least should be able to find out. At that point we will approach USDAW to see if they are willing to support/represent us. If not we will probably raise one against them although it will be for misrepresentation in their case I guess.
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 06:58PM
that's my point Claden, between jan15- dec 15 I was on team leader rate, however it states that it will be based on current rate which I believe cant be right since its a FACT I was on team leader rate from jan15 to may15???
I was told categorically it was based on your take home pay between jan 15 - dec 15 including any overtime earned, so I would imagine your T/L rate will be taken into consideration, it is not based on your 'current' rate it's based on your take home pay between those dates specified. Against whatever a years salary under the new rates is in. Hopefully they don't try to rip off all the T/L by moving the goalposts for them, good luck.
Thanks Claden, its a godsend having someone with a brain answer me today......
Kendodd
can you confirm the following rumour, that
'Ken Dodd's dad's dog's dead' ;) :thumbup:
This is good news. I am just writing to my SM about taking out a Grievance as I cannot get any joy from Usdaw. They are turning a blind eye now and are not returning calls. My union rep told me she didn't know anything about the pay cuts and didn't know what I was talking about. She told me to speak to Personnel. I can't believe that on top of negotiating for us to have a 25% pay cut hey then pretend they know nothing.
Quote from: claden on 06-02-16, 08:20PM
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 06:58PM
that's my point Claden, between jan15- dec 15 I was on team leader rate, however it states that it will be based on current rate which I believe cant be right since its a FACT I was on team leader rate from jan15 to may15???
I was told categorically it was based on your take home pay between jan 15 - dec 15 including any overtime earned, so I would imagine your T/L rate will be taken into consideration, it is not based on your 'current' rate it's based on your take home pay between those dates specified. Against whatever a years salary under the new rates is in. Hopefully they don't try to rip off all the T/L by moving the goalposts for them, good luck.
Claden it is on the ga rate. Speak to your union rep as it is printed in black and white in there pack they have. Why would they base it on a false figure.You have already been compensated for steeping down from Team Leader last year. Its now just greed from you guys. Pathetic yet comical.
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 06-02-16, 12:37PM
Redundancy is where there is loss of job due to the job becoming obsolete. Just because your losing part of your premium does not give you right for this. You are being compensated for next 18 months so if you do not like it you have 18 months to find a new job. You talk about the team leaders but in Express we lost our bonus which was an average loss to each employee of 10-15%. Did you hear us cry like babies because of it NO .At least you still have jobs.
Um no... It can be where the contract is redundant, a business case to show a particular style contract no longer meets the company need would be perfectly acceptable as legal. However the end of such contracts could be deemed as a redundant situation the need for new or leave with the relevant package.
A way around this is to negotiate a change via consultation based on a majority view. If the change goes unaposed where possible IT would deemed as accepted and applied legally to individual contracts as a negotiated and agreed change.
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 06-02-16, 08:38PM
Quote from: claden on 06-02-16, 08:20PM
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 06:58PM
that's my point Claden, between jan15- dec 15 I was on team leader rate, however it states that it will be based on current rate which I believe cant be right since its a FACT I was on team leader rate from jan15 to may15???
I was told categorically it was based on your take home pay between jan 15 - dec 15 including any overtime earned, so I would imagine your T/L rate will be taken into consideration, it is not based on your 'current' rate it's based on your take home pay between those dates specified. Against whatever a years salary under the new rates is in. Hopefully they don't try to rip off all the T/L by moving the goalposts for them, good luck.
Claden it is on the ga rate. Speak to your union rep as it is printed in black and white in there pack they have. Why would they base it on a false figure.You have already been compensated for steeping down from Team Leader last year. Its now just greed from you guys. Pathetic yet comical.
it isn't a FALSE figure based on the FACTS that team leaders didn't earn GA wage last year between Jan-May. Its false to pretend that we weren't on that rate actually..........
No but your a GA now and the compensation should be based on this. Do we need to draw pictures for you to understand.
Quote from: optout on 06-02-16, 08:25PM
Kendodd
can you confirm the following rumour, that
'Ken Dodd's dad's dog's dead' ;) :thumbup:
I knew I should have picked a different name lol
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 06-02-16, 09:17PM
No but your a GA now and the compensation should be based on this. Do we need to draw pictures for you to understand.
we'll agree to disagree hey????don't let your emotions outweigh your intelligence..............good night
If you are currently being compensated for previous losses, shouldn't that compensation be taken into account in the current compensation calculation, otherwise your previous loss will be compounded by the new loss, and because of this not compensated as agreed.
I agree that the previous compensation lump sum should be taken out of this calculation but then it will still work out less than my new salary after the payrise. it seriously isn't me being greedy, its me asking a question, even if people are saying its in the black and white, it isn't right.
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 07:10PM
Quote from: Kendodd on 06-02-16, 10:23AM
Quote from: Duracell on 06-02-16, 10:02AM
Just a thought.
When were TLs dispersed?
Are the people that were re contracted from being TLs now affected by the recent change?
I ask with unsureness of the timeframe between the 2 events.
I was once part of a collective greivance where a group of workers were negotiated with to make a change.. The change was made.
The grievance came about because the same group were targeted for a 2nd time to yet again change, whilst other groups were left unaffected.
The Grievance was based on the second request being unreasonable on the basis that they had only quite recently changed and other groups who could also "make a difference" were left unaffected.
The greivance was succesful albeit at local level.
I'm being affected twice 😞
your obviously a previous team leader, have u worked out that u will get a lump sum kendodd
I was previously a team leader and yes I'll probably get a lump sum too.. What I wanted to say was a union rep told a group of staff the other day that tesco and the union knew this was going to happen back in January last year... So why wasn't this told to us team leaders during our negotiations? Would have been a much easier decision to go ahead with redundancy instead of the lump sum... I think most of us were conned into staying if they did know back then.. We could have took redundancy and gone back in six months with the same contract as it will be in July... That's if we wanted to go back!!!
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 07:39PM
nothing greedy about seeking out everything you are entitled to from a company that I have been with from the start like yourself, if u never had the balls to work your way up the ladder, and not get a payout yourself, then that's my fault is it??????good day sir!!!
I have to ask, how old are you actually?
If you've been with the company from the start how was it working with good old jack in 1919 on the market stalls?
Or was it in the first shop that opened in 1929?
Are you the oldest person in the uk? If so hello Gladys, clearly Tesco's pensions performance over the past 90 odd years hasn't been kind to you😊
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 09:32PM
I agree that the previous compensation lump sum should be taken out of this calculation but then it will still work out less than my new salary after the payrise. it seriously isn't me being greedy, its me asking a question, even if people are saying its in the black and white, it isn't right.
I see it as renaging on what was previously agreed. Or orchestrating a way out of it.
And if this change had been in the cards amist the TL situation then all those affected were misinformed, but they could hardly say. Go to this but it won't last 12 months. Your JNC really don't have many if any scruples do they, have they no concept of what is reasonable.
Greetings,
Thought this would happen, individuals starting to take pot shots at each other, is this the way we treat and respect each other?
I'm not effected by the loss of night premiums or Sunday double time, but could. Anyone take a cut in their earnings? Compensation will not last forever. These individuals may have mortgages and family to support; so please have some dignity and respect by not adding fuel to the fire. They are at the end of the day our colleques.
I for one will not be making unwanted comments on here about their feelings and future actions they may wish to take against the company or union.
Red Rock, I agree.
I am unaffected, but I see this as a test, this is the start of a process to a consistant rate applied to all regardless of Time of day, week or the number of hours worked.
It will have an impact on all staff.
Duracell I think your wrong about this being a test but right about the it being the start of a consistent rate applied too all.
The test was the pension changes last year and as well all rolled over had our bellies tickled and took it, they now believe they can do anything they want.
If we will not fight something as big as the pension change that affects every colleague then they know we won't fight anything that they throw at us, especially changes that only affect a minority of colleagues.
Well I have just one thing to say mr tesco don't just give me a stupid payoff to come off my double pay on Sundays. Pleeeessse make me redundant please I beg you amen
I respect any opinion that challenges my opinion.
However I repectfully disagree that the pension was "the test".
The old scheme wasn't a contractual right providing the, new legal right "a company pension scheme" is accessible, which it is.
The level we had was a benefit if it was over and above the legal minimum, which the new is.
A change to a contract between the individual and the employer is a totally different ideal. It is enshrined in legal formalities and rights. YOUR right to agree or deny to a change in YOUR contract being key.
The pension never took away your right to "access a company pension". As that continued.
A deal, that denies you the right to agree or disagree to the change or removal of a contractual term is to be fair entirely different.
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 06-02-16, 08:38PM
Quote from: claden on 06-02-16, 08:20PM
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 06:58PM
that's my point Claden, between jan15- dec 15 I was on team leader rate, however it states that it will be based on current rate which I believe cant be right since its a FACT I was on team leader rate from jan15 to may15???
I was told categorically it was based on your take home pay between jan 15 - dec 15 including any overtime earned, so I would imagine your T/L rate will be taken into consideration, it is not based on your 'current' rate it's based on your take home pay between those dates specified. Against whatever a years salary under the new rates is in. Hopefully they don't try to rip off all the T/L by moving the goalposts for them, good luck.
Where is the like button when you need it ? My sentiments exactly. :thumbup:
Claden it is on the ga rate. Speak to your union rep as it is printed in black and white in there pack they have. Why would they base it on a false figure.You have already been compensated for steeping down from Team Leader last year. Its now just greed from you guys. Pathetic yet comical.
Quote from: Morris999 on 06-02-16, 09:37PM
Quote from: nightsboy on 06-02-16, 07:39PM
nothing greedy about seeking out everything you are entitled to from a company that I have been with from the start like yourself, if u never had the balls to work your way up the ladder, and not get a payout yourself, then that's my fault is it??????good day sir!!!
I have to ask, how old are you actually?
If you've been with the company from the start how was it working with good old jack in 1919 on the market stalls?
Or was it in the first shop that opened in 1929?
Are you the oldest person in the uk? If so hello Gladys, clearly Tesco's pensions performance over the past 90 odd years hasn't been kind to you😊
no I was humouring someone who had wrote the same actually!!u know, sense of humour or SOH depending how old u r u may not get it!i am 40 if u must know, and was f***** over last year and now this year too, so yes I bloody well am gonna try and get everything out of this sh**** company while I can
Quote from: Duracell on 06-02-16, 09:27PM
If you are currently being compensated for previous losses, shouldn't that compensation be taken into account in the current compensation calculation, otherwise your previous loss will be compounded by the new loss, and because of this not compensated as agreed.
been thinking about what u meant, and yes in May we received a lump sum payment to cover 2 years salary at team leader rate, so for 26 pay packets(13 each year) we could divide the lump sum by 26, add it to our monthly take home and still be receiving what we would have been as team leader. With this new loss, we will not be taking home what we would have been so yes u r totally correct, not being compensated as agreed!!good thinking!!!
Great , now we are getting somewhere . The financial support package is based on how staff are IMPACTED by the changes to premiums etc . Clearly your T L pay is not impacted because as you say , you are in effect still being paid as a T L due to your step down payment . Therefore the only impact on you would be any loss of pay due to premium changes based on your working patterns as a GA . Sorry we got a bit tetchy there but I'm glad the penny dropped. :thumbup:
Oh no my friend, I now feel I am even more affected because the terms of my two years lump sum is now being affected by this further cut, meaning they owe me in my eyes lol
I wish you well with it but I can't get my head around your logic however we will maybe have to agree to differ and put it down to different interpretations of the policy .
Nightsboy, yes sense of humour!
it was intended to lighten the tread, clearly missed on yourself!
Quote from: nightsboy on 07-02-16, 10:57AM
Oh no my friend, I now feel I am even more affected because the terms of my two years lump sum is now being affected by this further cut, meaning they owe me in my eyes lol
If you're contracted for Sundays at double time then you will lose money from July so they absolutely owe you money. Your 2 year payout was based on you earning x amount for 2 years now you won't be earning that.
Nightsboy I hope you get all you deserve. You clearly are the mastermind of Tesco and deserve your lump sum payment. It would be funny though if after all this thinking and moaning you get nowt. Please keep us all informed.
At least nights boy you will be well versed when they cancel nights next year and make all night managers redundant as well as staff. Good luck to you.
Your parents must be so proud of u..........
I am sceptical, of T's move to reduce night premiums along with reducing overtime and double time payments for long serving colleagues. If the intention is to scrap night fill in a large majority of stores in the not too distant future then any redundancy offers would also be greatly reduced by the reduction in premiums.
Also the latest pay settlement states that in future night premium will only increase in line with market conditions. How many night jobs are advertised at the moment with little if any extra pay for working nights?
I also know our group has several unfilled night team manager vacancies. Perhaps if DL and MD tried a few months on nights they would realise why these vacancies are difficult to fill. In my store day managers always leave on time, if they do any extra hours they always take it back as tl. We night managers are expected to do around 2 hours per shift extra unpaid and if we complain are reminded our contract states 36 is the minimum we are expected to work.
>:( >:( >:(
Night Owl
I wouldn't do the two extra hours per shift. If days don't do it then I wouldn't either. If they want to kick off about it, then put in a claim of discrimination against night workers.
If the contract states it's 36 hours minimum then state this should also be the case with the day managers. Any kind of discrimination is unlawful and can constitute a breach of trust in your employer.
It would be hard to prove.
I know in every store I've worked in all managers work more than the minimum 36 hours without even realising it most of the time.
7.5 hours 5 days a week comes to 37.5 hours, you will be hard pressed to find a store where the managers all take there early day.
you would also have to prove that all the day managers are not completing their job roles within the 36 hour minimum working week and they are not all green performers.
Some of the job role packs are quite specific and if the manager is doing everything in it regardless of what you think they should be doing on there department or what state the store is in then again you'd be hard pressed to prove that your being discriminated against on those grounds.
Simply, do the 7.5 hour shift you are meant to do. Go home and that is that. If they are saying you have to do more hours just because you are NIGHT STAFF, that's pretty easy to prove.
It's not as simple as doing a 7.5 hour shift then going home!
If you a CA or T/L then yes go home!
A managers contract and terms and conditions are different!
You are paid a salary for the job you do, which is a minimum of 36 hours per week!
It's nothing to do with days vs night managers.
in his store the day managers might be able to complete their job roles in 36 hours, where as the night managers may not for a variety of reasons!
Maybe the day managers are also unable to complete their job roles in 36 hours but couldn't give a s*** and maybe they aren't green performers because of it!
we have 2 managers in my current store who every day without exception go bang on time every day.
Ones department is spot on never any issues the other is always a shambles, one gets a green review the other is amber and moans every day about it, but do they stay 1 minute extra to turn it round, not a chance.
If the night managers have completed their role in the morning then go home on time, there's nothing they can do about it, however if they haven't then yes they would be expected to sort it out!
It's as simple as that for all managers!
Does anybody know if the managers are affected by double time on Sunday ?
Is that the same T&C's that get used on GA'S who work late and get told they have to stay till the job is finished with no extra pay???
If your willing to let Tesco roll over you and not stand up for yourself in regards to working practices, then stick to it. If not and you believe it's wrong that day managers can walk out at their leisure and nights have to "stay till it's finished", fight it.
Main problem is our lead trade manager. He insists the moment of certainty rests with the night to days handover at 7am. So we are told this that and the other are not done, due to sick calls, checkout calls etc at 10pm. But come 7am and the morning handover, we are expected to handover a store that is 100%, regardless of any sick calls etc. Even when we do achieve our lead trade manager looks to find fault, labels not exactly to the left, clip strips, cleaning etc. Not that they are ever 100% at 10pm.
Days and night managers are a mix of blue, green and amber performers. Lead day trade manager just pulls rank and regularly hands over on his late nights unfinished tasks, like fresh and grocery split not complete.
Seriously thinking of a day role after 15 years on nights, just to get a normal work life balance again.
I work as a team support on checkouts at a Tesco Extra on Sundays. I am now the only Team support on this day can they do this?
Same was the case in my store. Nights were always being expected to handover a 'perfect' store in the morning, regardless of sick or holidays involved.
It used to grind me a lot how the days got away with leaving stores looking like a bomb site at 10pm.
The whole thing of "nights must stay till it's done" made just leave bang on time a certainty.
Equaliser you and I both know CA's t&c are slightly different to managers!
As for managers telling CA's they have to stay behind unpaid to finish the work is disgusting and I'm sure is breaking the law!
A manager not finishing their role in the minimum of 36 hours that their role should take to fulfill is completely different to telling a CA to stay behind unpaid to finish the supposed work!
A manager can only be managed on what their job role pack says they are to be managed on!
If the new night managers job role pack doesn't say the shop must be filled 100%, all labels to left of the products etc then they cannot be managed on it no matter what the lead trading manager thinks!
Night owl if you haven't got your new role pack get it and work to it!
If the lead trading manager pulls you up on it, put a grievance in!
Also if he hands things over like you say then keep a record of it for evidence
Thankfully Morris999, I left Tesco and found a far better and more rewarding job with better pay. I am saying that regardless of contractual T&C's or rediculous handovers and work packs, being told that a night manager WILL do 2 hours extra hours every shift REGARDLESS of the workload is unacceptable and discriminates against them. No one should be working extra hours when there is no need to. That's includes Managers, TL'S and GA'S
Just a thought if managers work 10 hours extra per week have they ever sat down and worked out just how much their salary divided by the actual hours worked equates to. Hopefully its above the living wage per hour otherwise they are running themselves ragged for less per hour than a G A earns.
Quote from: antico on 08-02-16, 08:20AM
Just a thought if managers work 10 hours extra per week have they ever sat down and worked out just how much their salary divided by the actual hours worked equates to. Hopefully its above the living wage per hour otherwise they are running themselves ragged for less per hour than a G A earns.
have never seen a manager run ragged in my store .... Quite the opposite
we have been told that anyone not contracted on a Sunday that works as overtime and on a double time contract. will get a pay-out is this correct? if so how is this fair to contracted staff. As the non contracted people will still get their contracted pay during the week, whereas the Sunday contracted people will not, leaving them less contracted pay and less going into their pensions
Everyones pay will be reviewed taking what they earned last year Jan - Dec then compare it against what it would have been under new pay structure and if there is a lesser amount then a lump sum payment will be paid.This includes all overtime. Remember Bugsbunny its not just sunday staff who may be losing out.
Hi, new poster here but lurked on and off for a while, couldnt see how to start a new thread but its related.
I really cant find any info as to the location pay changes other than in the leaflet on pay and benefits, i dont know what location pay grade my store was and what it will be from July, but I've heard from a colleague at a similar sized store that they will lose out as they were a top banded store under the old 5 rate banding but will move down to the +68p an hour rate and thus lose a fair chunk of location pay.
Any info on where i could find out my store banding before and after the changes would be much appreciated.
how much do you get at moment?
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 08-02-16, 01:13PM
how much do you get at moment?
If i devide my location pay supplement by 4 then divided by my hours worked a week it works out as 51p an hour, however a colleague from a near store says they have been told their location pay going down to 68p from about a £1 an hour, im fairly sure my particular store was the 2nd highest banding store for location pay so am curious if my current location pay rate of 51p will got to the new highest rate of 68p or the 2nd highest of 45p an hour in July, info really hard to come by.
[gmod]
Have a lurk at this page re: starting new topics,
Supporter Benefits (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?page=15)[/gmod]
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 08-02-16, 12:11PM
Everyones pay will be reviewed taking what they earned last year Jan - Dec then compare it against what it would have been under new pay structure and if there is a lesser amount then a lump sum payment will be paid.This includes all overtime. Remember Bugsbunny its not just sunday staff who may be losing out.
we were told it's only staff who lose out on contracted premiums on Sunday's/nights .
Quote from: bugsbunny on 08-02-16, 12:05PM
we have been told that anyone not contracted on a Sunday that works as overtime and on a double time contract. will get a pay-out is this correct? if so how is this fair to contracted staff. As the non contracted people will still get their contracted pay during the week, whereas the Sunday contracted people will not, leaving them less contracted pay and less going into their pensions
we were told it's only contracted people on Sunday/night premiums that will receive the pay out .
Come on guys read your books. It goes by last years total earnings so if you worked overtime then thats part of your earnings
Quote from: Yorkshire dave on 08-02-16, 02:49PM
Come on guys read your books. It goes by last years total earnings so if you worked overtime then thats part of your earnings
it actually says in the booklet it's for some colleagues affected by the changes to premiums . If after the changes have been applied and you see a net reduction in take home pay then you'll be supported with a lump sum payment . There is just too much confusion over this .
We've been told by a member of staff our location pay is being cut, we currently get 68p an hour and they going to cut it to 45p essentiallyeating no pay rise.
So come August ocado drivers will earn just 17p an hour less, but they get better equipment, better working conditions, overtime pay, unsociable hours pay, a bigger discount, less work, for what currently is the same amount per month and will soon be more.
I wonder why tesco has such a poor retention rate for their drivers, I don't doubt it's the same for other positions too, why would I work as a driver for tesco when I can earn more for less work at our competitor, our managers really don't have a clue.
When are we meant to find out our new location pay scales because nobody in our store has been told.
Totally agree with spooner, very confusing about who gets payout. why are non contracted people getting a payout for the overtime they have done? overtime is not guaranteed and should not be relied on. whereas our contracted hours are and we are having our contracted wages cut. As well as losing out on pension contributions. why is the company compensating non contracted staff? no one seems to be able to give an answer to this. Giving them a payout must be costing the company a fortune.
[gmod]Please do not quote immediately prior post.
[/gmod]
i don't think non contracted people are getting a pay out . We were told it's only people on contracted premiums . I think a lot of people have misunderstood and it has left confusion everywhere . Even the reps haven't got a clue but then apparently they haven't got a clue about anything even the fact that we were shafted . All this uncertainty until June is ridiculous but at least if you're contracted premiums you know you will be getting a payout even if it doesn't include overtime . The whole thing is an absolute disgrace . Loyalty has just been stamped on without a care for anyone .
[gmod]Please do not quote immediately prior post.[/gmod]
I spoke to a member of Tesco h\o who confirmed it's both contracted and non thank god. Also my union rep confirmed that is what they were told at meeting!!! I can see the point from the contracted however I've literally worked every Sunday for the last 10\15 years so feel like I belong in that bracket!!! I would have been disappointed had they said no. The force was with me :-)
Quote from: horatiocain on 08-02-16, 06:00PM
We've been told by a member of staff our location pay is being cut, we currently get 68p an hour and they going to cut it to 45p essentiallyeating no pay rise.
So come August ocado drivers will earn just 17p an hour less, but they get better equipment, better working conditions, overtime pay, unsociable hours pay, a bigger discount, less work, for what currently is the same amount per month and will soon be more.
I wonder why tesco has such a poor retention rate for their drivers, I don't doubt it's the same for other positions too, why would I work as a driver for tesco when I can earn more for less work at our competitor, our managers really don't have a clue.
When are we meant to find out our new location pay scales because nobody in our store has been told.
Absolutely no driver retention at my store now or in the past, only a few hardcore remain. With a constant stream of new starters trained and leaving not long after. Surely cant make any financial sense.
Looking like my store will be downgraded slightly on location pay to 45p from the figure I worked out I currently get of 51p.Also possible might get upgraded to 68p but that would make me an eternal optimist 8-)
Hi hope this is not a stupid question. If you are contracted for the Sunday and you accept the lump sum. Then you decide a couple of weeks later you know longer wish to do the Sundays would you have to pay the money back?
yes you will. Unlike the TL payments last year which were unconditional these payments are and if you change or leave within ( I think its 6 months) then you would have to pay remainder back.
From the briefing " These payments are no strings attached ".
But why are the company paying the non contracted people? Does anybody know the reason why? There must be a reason for it.
Because if you work every second sunday on overtime at double time, then you continue to do so you will be financially disadvatntaged
But overtime is not guaranteed
It doesnt matter. Your terms and conditions are changing. Even if you did a few double time sundays or bank holidays in 2015 you should get a payout as if you do a few after July you will be worse off.
I may be mistaken but I think it would be unfair if they didnt. Remember you re only getting the difference after the payrise so it may not be that much for some people.
Quote from: BANDERSNATCH on 08-02-16, 08:13PM
From the briefing " These payments are no strings attached ".
According to the Union this is not true . Would be useful if they both at least were giving the same info.
Non contracted staff are not forced to do sundays but contracted staff are. You can not get away from the fact that non contracted staff contracted pay is not changing, but contracted sunday staff pay is and this will be the same in 18months time non contracted staff pay will still be the same as it is now. But contracted sunday staff pay will be lower than it is now.
Contracted staff ARE NOT forced to do Sundays . No one is .
Quote from: bugsbunny on 08-02-16, 08:52PM
Non contracted staff are not forced to do sundays but contracted staff are. You can not get away from the fact that non contracted staff contracted pay is not changing, but contracted sunday staff pay is and this will be the same in 18months time non contracted staff pay will still be the same as it is now. But contracted sunday staff pay will be lower than it is now.
Are you saying that non contracted staff who work Sunday will get double pay?
Is it just me or does the busbunny's post not make sense ? ALL Sunday staff , (contracted or not), currently on double time premium , will be on time and a half for their Sundays, (contracted or not) , from July 3rd 2016. Not all contracted Sunday staff were on double time, the vast majority are on time and a half and are not affected.
Lets start again. Sunday contracted double time staff lose part of their weekly wage in july. Non contracted staff who currently get double time for working sunday as overtime do not lose part of their weekly wage. But are also getting the 18 month payout
bugsbunny its quite simple how its being done .... last years pay ( all hours worked and premiums ) will be worked out using the new rate of pay and premiums. That figure is compared to what you got last year and if its less your gonna get then you get 18x the difference.
Only things not included is any lump sum pay outs for example TL and the 2012 cash bonus pay out. These figures would be removed before any calculations done.
If you still want to disagree I would advise you speak to your union rep or AO who have there pay brief which clearly says above.
bugsbunny: whether contracted or not they are buying out the right to double time for Sundays /bank holidays from all entitled colleagues. Everyone will in future be entitled to 1.5 . the amount of money paid to compensate for the loss to all entitled double timers ( contracted or not ) will depend on individual loss incurred by the change.
This is from briefing pack with reference to Location pay.
As from 3rd of July2016,location bands will move from five to three bands.As from July 2016,new location bands will be
Band A-0p (rest of uk)
Band B-45p typically stores in south east
Band C-68p typically stores i London
Communication will be sent out in February 2016 to those stores that have been realigned following the pay review.
From 3rd of July 2016 Tesco will move to a minimum six months notice period in order to remove or change location pay as part of any future location pay review.
Well what's happening to the team managers in the stores most of them receive double time they have not been told what's happening with there Sunday double time ?
No ones knows, still being negotiated
See.my post at http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15093.msg167422;topicseen#new (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15093.msg167422;topicseen#new) for my future predictions for the paydeal in 2018....
Has anybody else out there not been informed regarding the up and coming pay structure .
I for one have still not been informed by my manager. Both myself and her have not been on holiday or absent.
Not sure what she is playing at? >:D
Not making any excuses for your manager, however the brief managers were given stated that the stores management team had till end of week 52 to do all colleagues.
Now as this all started in week 49(last week) and we are now in week 50 they still have just over 2 weeks to complete all colleagues.
However saying that I've briefed all my colleagues and many on other departments too.
It seems that some managers just cannot be bothered to brief there own departments colleagues and are leaving it to other managers to do the briefings, especially the older contracted colleagues!
[gmod]Quote deleted. Please don't quote the last post in a thread.[/gmod]
Thanks for the info.
As I work in Express and I am the only long termer left, I think it is pretty poor that she hasn't yet done anything about it. We are only a small store. I spend most days working along side her, yet she has said nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Why leave it to the last minute. I just can't work her out!!
I've worked for far better managers in the past.
That being so, why not ask her about it?
Quote from: bugsbunny on 08-02-16, 10:26PM
Lets start again. Sunday contracted double time staff lose part of their weekly wage in july. Non contracted staff who currently get double time for working sunday as overtime do not lose part of their weekly wage. But are also getting the 18 month payout
As someone who does get double time I won't get much if anything from the payout as I hardly ever work Sunday's or bank holidays. I do them from time to time to help and support but after paying the extra tax and national insurance it's just not worth it financially. For a full day I don't end up with much more than an hours pay. I have talked to others and they all say the same. If you are contracted Sunday's it is worth it but it is really not something to fight to keep if you just do the odd one. As an ex-team leader on skilled rate I only took home at most £100 more than someone who was not on double time but was contracted Sunday's.
It all depends on how many hours you work, contracted and how many hours you do on overtime. I work five days a week and I have done my time working six, I would still be happy to be contracted Sunday's as I would value two days off in the week. I struggle with being in for deliveries or staying in for workmen. I like working weekends, we take more money on a Sunday than we do some days in the week, it is just another day for many.
In Scotland many of the store are open 24 hours a day 7 days a week, it already is just another day for most. For those who want to keep it special, as a religious day or as a family day that's fine but if it's special they would not be working it anyway.
Years ago I was only on a few hours. I did do lots of overtime but it killed me when it came to holidays. As we seem to be replacing so many full timers with part time I think the average pay over the past twelve weeks during holidays is great. It would have made all the difference to me and I know of many who feel the same now. We do have a lot of people who do rely on overtime and for them to still be paid this during holidays is a big thing and something I fully support. I suffered so I understand.
I am wonder how it is possible that apparently everyone is paying ridiculous amount of tax and then is winging that at X day of OT shift is lost in full for covering taxes??? I work full time and I work at least 1 (record was 8 days in one month) OT shift per month and never had to pay more tax than usual ?? If I had 45 pound to my net pay for 1 day for OT shift then i had 270 for 6 OT shifts. I even had my tax refund at one point, read year.
So let me someone explain how in the name of all gods you people pay so much taxes???????? I understand part timer who just entered to first tax band and must give away 1/3 of the pay ? but if you already earn over £10,600 then 1 day of work in Tesco (night shift for a GA) is worth nothing more than 45 pound. Are you all calculating your pay based on average? do you all add Sunday premium to every day you work, or maybe night premium to every hour , even to that one worked between 6am and 7am, or 6h shift as 7,5h as I had people who were doing that.
I worked with a guy who was laughing that he is working 4 shifts and is earning little bit less than a guy who is working 5. When I told him he is an idiot and his similar pay comes out from better night and Sunday premiums he never open his mouth again.
[gmod]Please do not quote immediately prior post.[/gmod]
mate do you realy know what you are going on about
I know lads that work in Tesco on 4 nights a week and pick on just less then £100 pound less then some one that works 4 more night a week
I was told by my manager and union rep it was the government fault we where loosing double time lol
Typical management and union talking a load of rubbish again,lies lies lies,they treat staff as if they are idiots it's going to be hell for them now after the way staff have been treated from the directors they deserve it ,over the years managers were standing talking while staff rushing round everywhere we love it now the pressures on them taking them to breaking point their power trips seam to be failing now lol
That's it Mozzer you rage against the machine, what a totally ridiculous way to look at things!
Voice of reason, I have worked so hard for this company and so committed from the bottom of my heart, now the way they have treated us they get from me what I get paid for, and no more no less.
Mozzer
I Agree, most staff give their all for Tesco but its us who take the fall, I could stomach it more if all colleagues were treated the same, I understand that some in distribution are still getting double time, I would also find it easier if Tesco looked at all the other areas to save costs before raping their staff of hard earned benefits.........
There are numerous area where money could be saved first.
A cull from the top (executives) down to (and including) senior management would be a good place to start >:D
Thankgod somebody agrees with me voice of reason made me feel slightly guilty NOT ,obviously they are not affected at all ,typical and it would be interesting what the executives get if this bonus comes ? theirs will be thousands and we'll have to be grateful for a pittance tw@@s.people forget we are the back bone of this company and was those f@@@ers who messed it up by been greedy.loki hope your doing ok we are missing you
Update on the grievance put in at our store. The PM came back and said his boss had rung ACAS and they had changed their outlook on the problem! This turned out to be rubbish as we contacted ACAS ourselves and they did not anything about it. They said that the more grievances that T**co and Usdaw received the more likely they would be to review the situation. It is important to put the grievance in to Usdaw as well as the company so that they know the scale of the problem. This situation is not set in stone yet and there is room for manoeuvre. When putting in a grievance it is important to know what you want to achieve. Our store is pushing for reinstatement of double time for people contracted on Sunday only. They are the only ones that are losing money out of their basic wage and works out about 25% of double timers in the store. Taking this as an average across the company this would be 25% of 14% or 3.5% of the total staff and costing £3.70 per hour per person on a Sunday. I strongly advise any Sunday contracted double timer to put in a grievance asap. Don't forget to keep a copy for yourself and get anything discussed in writing.
Thanks for that daftjoe I will do that. no good just moaning about this all of us contracted double timers must put a grievance in or we will have no one else to blame except ourselves. if we don't put in a grievance the company will think we are happy with their decisions. Don't wait for someone else to do it we must all do it.
Quote from: Mozzer on 15-02-16, 01:35PM
Voice of reason, I have worked so hard for this company and so committed from the bottom of my heart, now the way they have treated us they get from me what I get paid for, and no more no less.
It not that I don't agree with you but as the title says it is about double time not s**g off every manager you come across and hope they all get stressed out to f*** etc etc, and before you say it no I'm not a manager and to be honest they will more than likely be in the same boat as us come June, managers are staff exactly like us and do not make these policies at store level so try to have some respect for your colleagues
Just a thought, would i be right in thinking that the majority of those contracted to and losing double time are women.
I say this because the shopfloor was traditionally made up of a female workforce, and the further back you go the more truth this holds.
So given that those who have the option of double time in their contracts are long time employees, I would guess that most (NOT all) are female.
Any thoughts on this :question:
Are you thinking along the line of indirect discrimination?. It probably won't wash as the change affects all double timers.
not double timers in distribution ;) :thumbup:
Voice of reason ,point taken but if certain managers showed respect they would get it back some talk to staff like fools so NO RESPECT,some go out of their way for us its a two way thing as you well know,back to double time we are being shafted big time
Optout
There are transport drivers still on double time....
mosquito read optout's post again and the one straight before it. You will then understand what he Is saying. :)
Distribution are currently not being asked to give up 100% premiums where it is contracted.
Another thought, I would imagine those in distribution on double time are predominately men :question: :question: :thumbup:
Just looking for angles here :thumbup:
Age discrimination? Only those who are more mature are being singled out.
age discrimination, Yet another 'elephant in the room' :thumbup: ??? :thumbup:
There are a lot of variables in distribution as well ,because most newer sites,don't pay 100% premium for Sunday anyway and depending on what type of stock a particular site has ,sometimes defines how many women are there .At the DC that I am at the warehouse operatives are predominantly male ,but this is balanced out slightly by the fact the clerical and office staff are predominantly female.
Quote from: optout on 16-02-16, 06:37PM
age discrimination, Yet another 'elephant in the room' :thumbup: ??? :thumbup:
Not sure about age discrimination.
It could apply to a 35 year old as much as a 55 year old potentially.
Such a broad claim, would be hard to validate as the claimant would have to be able to clearly show they were treated differently because of Age.
I don't think (in my honest opinion) that this is a discrimination claim. It is difficult because obviously other's in a similar position are being treated the same, being victimised is about being singled out and treated differently to everyone else.
:thumbup:
Has any one on here put in a grievance/ complaint about losing their contracted double time? or is everyone moaning and doing nothing? Did anyone see the headline Sunday pay pickpockets. On page 2 of the daily mirror today? anyone going to contact this MP with regard to this matter?
Would someone be prepared to send me a copy of a grievance I could use as a template? I have no idea where to begin, and no support in store as very few are affected 😠
Our pm said any grievance would be thrown out at an early stage as the changes were accepted by USDAW (well lets be honest the union would tell us all to eat dog food if Tesco asked them to) and the other reason it would be thrown out is the company have the right to change terms and conditions and are giving a payment to any staff affected despite no legal need to do so. I really dont like this change as it will hit me and of course many others in the pocket but it seems that no matter what anyone does or says its going to happen and Usdaw will endorse it and go along with it at least at a national level.
@penguin I think you should treat what your PM has told you with a rather large pinch of salt, given that almost all of the PM' s I have had the unfortunate honour of having any dealings with just say the first thing that comes into their head in the hope that the problem will just go away, most of them couldn't hit their own ar*e with a banjo. The PM in my store is so far out of their depth it is excruciating to watch, simply lurches from one disaster to another, no people skills or common sense whatsoever, luckiest person I have ever met during my working life to even have a job. :( :( :( :(
Totally agree with what mexicopete has said. Rather than moaning about what a bad deal this is. People need to get off their backsides and start taking action. We had a meeting with our PM today and, although he was very negative about the likely outcome, he is duty bound to report our grievances to his boss who is collating all the reports across the group and ultimately the company. There was another article about the pay cut in the Daily Mirror today :- http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fury-stores-slash-sunday-pay-7376743 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fury-stores-slash-sunday-pay-7376743) One of my colleagues contacted the MP mentioned in the article and they were very interested to hear from anyone that is affected and is losing money in the deal. Siobhain McDonagh contact details can be found here :- http://www.siobhainmcdonagh.org.uk/contact.aspx (http://www.siobhainmcdonagh.org.uk/contact.aspx)
Come on guys! get those grievances in, Contact the MP and lets see what happens. At least then we have tried!
I have not read through all this thread but as i am affected thought i would have my say on the supposed 18 month pay out.
They say we will be compensated but no way is it going to be 18 months worth of money as it is net pay not gross pay so in effect it will be like paying tax and insurance twice.
Quote from: ironskin on 17-02-16, 06:43PM
I have not read through all this thread but as i am affected thought i would have my say on the supposed 18 month pay out.
They say we will be compensated but no way is it going to be 18 months worth of money as it is net pay not gross pay so in effect it will be like paying tax and insurance twice.
i said this in our pay briefing and my PM said I was wrong ?
Why would it be based on your net pay?
I was told this at my briefing on the wage rise.It is based on net reduction it is highlighted on the pay and benefits booklet (page 5)
Spooner all who it affects at my store understand the the payout as we do.
On OurTesco site it also states :
If, after all of the changes have been applied, you see a net reduction in your take home pay based on last year's pay data, you'll receive a lump sum payment on 29 July, worth 18 months of the difference.
Quote from: picktocube on 17-02-16, 08:38PM
On OurTesco site it also states :
If, after all of the changes have been applied, you see a net reduction in your take home pay based on last year's pay data, you'll receive a lump sum payment on 29 July, worth 18 months of the difference.
So it will be based on take home pay that is the way i am reading this,i will get a sum total of 18 months of net pay which i receive in July's pay which of course will be liable to deductions of tax and N.I. so in essence it is like been taxed twice.
:thumbup:
And it applies to both contracted and non thank god lol
More waffling NO ACTION! >:D
From the Your Pay and Benefits 2016/17 booklet.
QuoteIf, after the changes have been applied, you see a net reduction in your take home pay based on last year's pay data, you'll be supported with a lump sum payment.
It's quite clear in the graphic that the calculation will be taking your income in calendar year 2015 and comparing it to your expected 2016 income under the new deal including new hourly rates and new premiums. You will have a net increase or reduction in pay and will be compensated should there be a net reduction. You will still have to pay tax and NI on the lump sum.
Strangly they are not using the theory they used in the maths about hourly pay per worker.
They have decided to leave out the club card "pay" they used to say we were all on 9 per hour.
2 year pay freeze and they give you 1/5 years compensation .
Any one on benefits such as family credit or NHS exceptions.
Is about to be seriously messed up.
Quote from: penguin on 16-02-16, 07:38PM
Our pm said any grievance would be thrown out at an early stage as the changes were accepted by USDAW (well lets be honest the union would tell us all to eat dog food if Tesco asked them to) and the other reason it would be thrown out is the company have the right to change terms and conditions and are giving a payment to any staff affected despite no legal need to do so. I really dont like this change as it will hit me and of course many others in the pocket but it seems that no matter what anyone does or says its going to happen and Usdaw will endorse it and go along with it at least at a national level.
Not strictly true, they can't CHANGE your contract without your agreement.
What the company can legally do is END it as its not financially viable, with the correct notice and consultation process.
Terminating a no longer viable contract is a lot more UGLY for the company and would be scrutinised more for legitimacy.
Britains Biggest employer ends 50,000 employment contracts is too negative, particulary as the number would be far greater, because to end such contracts as a business case they would have to end all such contracts in the whole of the Business.
Which of course at present they are not doing.
So earlier in this thread (I think) there was talk of victimisation.
As a retail worker within the business? What is the principle reason for reducing the premiums?
To me it seems to be equalisation of pay and a levelling of t and c s which should in theory prevent the disharmony we are now encountering when future cuts are made. We have to get to that holy grail (the living wage) somehow. Simplistic view I know but that's how I see it.
looking at the leaflet regarding this years pay review there is a new part of the holiday process whereas your holiday pay is the average pay including overtime payments (company made a big thing of this) meaning you can get between 1 and 2% extra holiday pay. However what is not mentioned and believe is likely is that if you are relatively new and dont get paid sick for the first 3 days of sickness and dont do overtime then surely your holiday pay will be less than the contractual ,if you get my drift.
I find the whole premiums stuff very complicated. All I know is that after 19 years of hard labour on nights I am being rewarded with a huge drop in pay which is protected for only 18 months ....unlike the previous protected payouts of 2 years. Does anybody think us old timers should be getting 2 years protected pay.
Quote from: Duracell on 18-02-16, 09:43AM
Quote from: penguin on 16-02-16, 07:38PM
Our pm said any grievance would be thrown out at an early stage as the changes were accepted by USDAW (well lets be honest the union would tell us all to eat dog food if Tesco asked them to) and the other reason it would be thrown out is the company have the right to change terms and conditions and are giving a payment to any staff affected despite no legal need to do so. I really dont like this change as it will hit me and of course many others in the pocket but it seems that no matter what anyone does or says its going to happen and Usdaw will endorse it and go along with it at least at a national level.
Not strictly true, they can't CHANGE your contract without your agreement.
What the company can legally do is END it as its not financially viable, with the correct notice and consultation process.
Terminating a no longer viable contract is a lot more UGLY for the company and would be scrutinised more for legitimacy.
Britains Biggest employer ends 50,000 employment contracts is too negative, particulary as the number would be far greater, because to end such contracts as a business case they would have to end all such contracts in the whole of the Business.
Which of course at present they are not doing.
So earlier in this thread (I think) there was talk of victimisation.
As a retail worker within the business? What is the principle reason for reducing the premiums?
Duracell it's a failure to comply with a reasonable business request. Reasonable in the fact that the partnership agreement makes usdaw party to agree all changes for the colleague population. Once they agree it, it may be deemed a conduct issue with a colleague refusing to comply with a reasonable request.
the hooch i do not agree that you should get 2 years protected pay YOU should be fighting to keep your double time.
Quote from: formerscoboy on 18-02-16, 06:27PM
Quote from: Duracell on 18-02-16, 09:43AM
Quote from: penguin on 16-02-16, 07:38PM
Our pm said any grievance would be thrown out at an early stage as the changes were accepted by USDAW (well lets be honest the union would tell us all to eat dog food if Tesco asked them to) and the other reason it would be thrown out is the company have the right to change terms and conditions and are giving a payment to any staff affected despite no legal need to do so. I really dont like this change as it will hit me and of course many others in the pocket but it seems that no matter what anyone does or says its going to happen and Usdaw will endorse it and go along with it at least at a national level.
Not strictly true, they can't CHANGE your contract without your agreement.
What the company can legally do is END it as its not financially viable, with the correct notice and consultation process.
Terminating a no longer viable contract is a lot more UGLY for the company and would be scrutinised more for legitimacy.
Britains Biggest employer ends 50,000 employment contracts is too negative, particulary as the number would be far greater, because to end such contracts as a business case they would have to end all such contracts in the whole of the Business.
Which of course at present they are not doing.
So earlier in this thread (I think) there was talk of victimisation.
As a retail worker within the business? What is the principle reason for reducing the premiums?
Duracell it's a failure to comply with a reasonable business request. Reasonable in the fact that the partnership agreement makes usdaw party to agree all changes for the colleague population. Once they agree it, it may be deemed a conduct issue with a colleague refusing to comply with a reasonable request.
Do nothing then :thumbup:
Quote from: chris9997 on 18-02-16, 04:59PM
looking at the leaflet regarding this years pay review there is a new part of the holiday process whereas your holiday pay is the average pay including overtime payments (company made a big thing of this) meaning you can get between 1 and 2% extra holiday pay. However what is not mentioned and believe is likely is that if you are relatively new and dont get paid sick for the first 3 days of sickness and dont do overtime then surely your holiday pay will be less than the contractual ,if you get my drift.
Absence is not included. I thought this as well but the brief clearly states you get your average of last 12 weeks or basic, whichever is higher.
My wife spoke to one of the reps on wage negotiations and they said staff should stop complaining because they voted years ago for the partnership agreement ,so it looks as if they signed there rights away,e.g staff dint have a say,i say it again usdaw keep close to tesco because it pays those very big salaries for usdaws management cars hotels expensive meals outa staffs hard earned money.i stand to be corrected if I'm wrong
A lot of those staff have left the company now so we need to have a new vote on whether or not we have a say ,after all we live in a democracy surely every four years like they do in the elections .
Thing is oliver with the turnover of staff over the last few years I'd dare like to bet there are not many of the membership who voted for the original partnership agreement. So with that in mind I don't take kindly to said reps remarks regarding the partnership agreement it kind of typifies USDAW complete and utter contempt towards it's paying membership. We are all in effect paying USDAW to just follow whatever Tesco asks of them. They are in reality treating us with more contempt than Tesco, but we are paying USDAW to treat us with contempt, it's quite unbelievable the membership are allowing this to happen. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Exactly Hammer10. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
I've said it before so I'll say it again, if affected individuals are adamant that the pay deal does not comply with legislation, then seek legal assistance from a solicitor that specialises in employment law.
You will not receive assistance from Usdaw regarding this.
Furthermore, you will be sorely disappointed with the outcome of your inquiries.
In other words..leave or take your money upfront and start planning for the future. There's sweet bugger all you can do.
apparently i voted for this partnership,although i didnt and I've been with Tesco 20 yrs :'( and then non union staff didnt vote either ???????????
Yes like it or f@@@ off there are just over 3million immigrants come to UK in the last 20 years it was in the papers today they will gladly take our jobs tesco would love this as it hs been said before loyalty mean jack
Has anyone done anything about this yet ie put in a grievance, put in a complaint to pesonnell? or are you all just moaning amongst yourself and doing nothing. If this is the case don't expect anything to change. It will only change if you shout loud enough and complain.
@weebee, you didn't necessarily vote for the Partnership Agreement I didn't vote for this government of cardsharps but I have no choice. For the past 20 years you and others have accepted the benefits that it has bought and haven't done anything about the detriment to new joiners who progressively got worse and worse terms of employment whilst you kept weekday overtime premiums, Sunday double time, sick pay from day one, fully voluntary Bank Holiday working and took the payrises that were contingent on those reductions. Those new joiners are now in the majority (85% to 15%)
"Cluck cluck" is that the sound of chickens on their way back home?
You are right about newer staff on different benefits and rates , in reality thats were the so called Union should have stood up to Tesco but no they didnt , am i supposed to feel guilty about having paid sick from day 1? Double time on sundays etc not my fault people join Tesco knowing that others have better benefits than them
I am in the process this week of submitting a grievance letter to the company and usdaw about the disgust myself and my fellow colleagues feel about this unfair cut in pay.People say quote,whats the point? It will not get you anywhere. Unquote,it may not however it will make me happier to know i have a t least tried what else can i do? Doing nowt ain't an option.My tip is once this 12 week higher rate holiday pay deal comes in get as much out of tosco as you can bang in the overtime (if there is any),any screw as much out of them as possible. >:D >:(
I would actually like to start a campaign to get premium pay for Saturdays and not just on Sundays.
Its unfair to work a Saturday which is classed as unsociable hours, at normal rate. I would argue that schools are closed on both Saturday's and Sunday's and they are both days where families should be able to spend quality time together. Hence, that if people work on such days they should be paid at a premium rate = to make it worthwhile.
No chance sat premium was sc**pped years ago, we were forced out of it with no choice in the end, despite me refusing a buyout for a few years before. Again USDAW failed us.
Saturday is the busiest day of the week. It takes the most money and requires more staff in. Saturday being special and getting a premium is never going to happen. We had it once, a very long time ago but even then not everybody had it. It was only given to full-timers who were contracted to Saturday's.
If you take a job in retail I think you should be realistic about working weekends, during the busiest trading times.
I have done nearly 25 years and I will no longer get double time but I hardly ever work Sunday's as I don't want to work 6 days a week. I would like them contracted, even with less pay as it would suit me to have two days off in the week. I am not so sure I would be that much worse off anyway, the extra tax, national insurance and pension paid when I do works Sunday's leaves me worse off than someone on time and a half anyway.
Anyone advice me about taking out a grievance, where do I get a grievance form? What do I say on the form? Who do I return the form to and can it be a group grievance ie all those affected staff and would they have to have their names on the form? Would appreciate as much help in this as possible.
And I've emailed the Labour MP unfortunately I don't live in her constituency so I don't think she would be able to 'help' me personally or is she just trying to get an idea of how many are affected?
[gmod]how do I put greavance in ? (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15120.msg167821#msg167821)[/gmod]
Quote from: ilikeabeer on 19-02-16, 05:27AM
I am in the process this week of submitting a grievance letter to the company and usdaw about the disgust myself and my fellow colleagues feel about this unfair cut in pay.People say quote,whats the point? It will not get you anywhere. Unquote,it may not however it will make me happier to know i have a t least tried what else can i do? Doing nowt ain't an option.My tip is once this 12 week higher rate holiday pay deal comes in get as much out of tosco as you can bang in the overtime (if there is any),any screw as much out of them as possible. >:D >:(
Glad to hear that Ilikeabeer. We have done the same at out store and are waiting for a response from group personnel and Uspoor. Have a look at my earlier post with the link to the MP who has taken an interest. It might be worth you contacting her too.
Quote from: Miss Piggy on 19-02-16, 07:10AM
I would actually like to start a campaign to get premium pay for Sat*rdays and not just on Sundays.
Its unfair to work a Sat*rday which is classed as unsociable hours, at normal rate. I would argue that schools are closed on both Sat*rday's and Sunday's and they are both days where families should be able to spend quality time together. Hence, that if people work on such days they should be paid at a premium rate = to make it worthwhile.
Don't work in retail then! Anyone knows shops are busiest on a Saturday, getting a job in retail means working weekends.
How about we all email Alison Horner the chief people officer for T**co uk operations her email address is alison.horner@uk.tesco.com will pm be interested if you tell them that's what you are doing then?
Quote from: Miss Piggy on 19-02-16, 07:10AMIts unfair to work a Sat*rday which is classed as unsociable hours, at normal rate. I would argue that schools are closed on both Sat*rdays and Sundays
Get a job in a school then. Oh, by the way they've not had a payrise for many years.
or alternatively we'll stop T*sco opening on Sundays and have half day closing on Wednesday. Just like it was in the "good old days".
We are in 2016 not stuck in 1956 FFS!
Miss piggy what planet are you from ,you obviously didn't do any research before going into retail,or is it that you took part time work to fit in between the kids school hours?
1.5x for Sat, x2 for Sun, never worked for less and nor would I. Not all progress/change is for the betterment of all (or even the majority).
To be fair, it breads contempt when decision makers dictate a business need, to work unsociable hours at normal rates, when realisticly they wouldn't do it themselves.
Quite ironic how salaried staff work day shifts Monday to Friday.
Then you have "accountable" staff to are expected to live and breath " the business" have really high salaries.
Ask yourself, if It you are expected to work the weekend, shouldn't you have the full range of employement support too.
Not having to wait till Monday when your pay is wrong.
IT issues being planned for when you are not there (in the week)as you work weekends.
Departments covering 24/7 yet the manager and support network for that department doesn't, they work bank hours.
Everyone works for T**** Stores ;)
The Business operates 24/7 so all of it should.
It's called the " The Animal Farm" effect Duracell. All people are equal but some are more equal than others. ;) ;) ;) ;)
Quote from: Mozzer on 20-02-16, 06:00AM
Miss piggy what planet are you from ,you obviously didn't do any research before going into retail,or is it that you took part time work to fit in between the kids school hours?
mmmmm, So what you are saying is that "out of the blue" a large corporation can scrap premium rates for Sunday workers. But employees, "out of the blue" can't protest for premium rates on a Saturday?
The trouble with you is that you are weak. In fact, if it was left to you Tesco would have Syrian refugees working for 50p an hour stacking the shelves.
You have to play them at their own game, stand up and be strong, don't be pushed around. The demise of premium rates on Sunday = today, will be the demise of something else tomorrow. We live in a capitalist World.
If every Tesco worker stood their ground, stood together to this large(greedy) corporation, we would stand a chance. Do I want premium rate for Saturday? Yes. Do Tesco's want you to work for peanuts? Yes.
Miss Piggy,
Your comments about Syrian refugees is unwarranted and you should know they wouldn't be allowed to work in the UK as refugees aren't permitted to work. So anymore remarks about fellow collegues being weak, then I will have to take you to make a meal out of you LOL; sausages are my favourite!
Quote from: Miss Piggy on 20-02-16, 10:17PM
Quote from: Mozzer on 20-02-16, 06:00AM
Miss piggy what planet are you from ,you obviously didn't do any research before going into retail,or is it that you took part time work to fit in between the kids school hours?
mmmmm, So what you are saying is that "out of the blue" a large corporation can sc**p premium rates for Sunday workers. But employees, "out of the blue" can't protest for premium rates on a Sat*rday?
The trouble with you is that you are weak. In fact, if it was left to you Tesco would have Syrian refugees working for 50p an hour stacking the shelves.
You have to play them at their own game, stand up and be strong, don't be pushed around. The demise of premium rates on Sunday = today, will be the demise of something else tomorrow. We live in a capitalist World.
If every Tesco worker stood their ground, stood together to this large(greedy) corporation, we would stand a chance. Do I want premium rate for Sat*rday? Yes. Do Tesco's want you to work for peanuts? Yes.
I think that when you fight for something you need to pick your battles. The sat premium is outdated, it's not the way things are going not only in retail but in other sectors too. When we did have it many years ago it was not given to all anyway, only to those who were full time and worked sat so the store I worked in gave the full timers sat day off to avoid paying the premium.
When I had young children many years ago I worked evenings and weekends, as did most with children. This was the norm as we had husbands to take over the childcare when we came to work. The demand is now for people with children to have weekends off and work school hours so the people of my generation are still left with weekends and evenings because of this. I have worked with people who pay so much in childcare that they work for nothing during school holidays.
As with everything else, it's a fine balance. Circumstances are different, times have changed. Things move on. When people are undergoing changes due to night shift being removed from some stores, Sunday premium no longer being paid, the change to twilight premium I don't think we should battle for the outdated sat premium. I think we should battle to keep Christmas special. Other retailers have lost free tea and coffee in canteen, we need to keep this. Some stores have very poor canteens and the service for the night team in the canteen can often be even worse, we need to fight for this too. Some equipment is out of date and needs a good refresh, we are very limited with what we can order due to costs but we need the tools to do the job. I'm just saying I think there are better things to fight for.
Quote from: the-vortex on 19-02-16, 11:43PM
Quote from: Miss Piggy on 19-02-16, 07:10AMIts unfair to work a Sat*rday which is classed as unsociable hours, at normal rate. I would argue that schools are closed on both Sat*rdays and Sundays
Get a job in a school then. Oh, by the way they've not had a payrise for many years.
or alternatively we'll stop T*sco opening on Sundays and have half day closing on Wednesday. Just like it was in the "good old days".
We are in 2016 not stuck in 1956 FFS!
But their starting salary is far higher than most GA's, and they get twice as many holidays. ;)
I don't think the point is a comparison with schools.
I don't think the point is even a comparison with other retailers.
The point for me is the principle of "turning the business around", if that's the ethos then lets ALL, make some sacrifices.
Dictating others need to change and make sacrafices when you are not prepared to even entertain the notion or lead by example then "Jog on".
The captain of our ship, has the opinion (because he stated so in the pension Q&A's) his terms are his terms, as if they are "protected". Wasn't open to discussion.
Remember when there are calls from the top table for contractual cuts.
DL and his team can fail to turn the business around and still walk away from the company with millions of £'s, which would mean they ( in the real world ) wouldn't have to work again.
Needs of the Business!!!
You take a hit then!!!
My comment about teachers was(mostly)tongue in cheek. As for the rest of your statement: preaching to the choir, my man. Preaching to the choir.
Just a thought, doing away with sunday double time in stores but not in distribution is that not discrimination as we all work for same employers
That's an interesting one weebee do you know this to be true?
Has anyone got a copy of the 1994 Sunday working Addendum England and Wales.( this is an add on to your contract) if you have not got it ask your PM for a copy of it. The document no/ref is RP7025/7/94 It clearly says on this document that hours worked on sunday will be paid at twice your normal hourly rate of pay.
That's the sort of thing we need bugsbunny. If it's an addendum to your contract surely it must be amended with your consultation individually not via the partnership agreement. The partnership agreement would only be valid for the generic contract in my book.
Don't think we got a case for discrimination weebee, the new your pay and benefits booklet says for hourly paid staff and customer fulfilment centres
That's the way I would think it to be Daftjoe
Quote from: bugsbunny on 22-02-16, 02:39PMThe document no/ref is RP7025/7/94 It clearly says on this document that hours worked on sunday will be paid at twice your normal hourly rate of pay.
I would suggest that when you agreed accepted cutting the Sundays and BHs rate of pay for future colleagues to 1.5x and the abolition of Overtime premiums the same that this became inoperative.
Quote from: weebee on 21-02-16, 11:39PMJust a thought, doing away with sunday double time in stores but not in distribution is that not discrimination as we all work for same employers.
We work for the same company as Drastic so perhaps we should ask for equal pay with him? Discrimination would need to based on there being a disproportionate detrimental effect on a specific group of employees (such as based on gender or race) for doing jobs of equivalent worth to the company.
Quote from: weebee on 21-02-16, 11:39PM
Just a thought, doing away with sunday double time in stores but not in distribution is that not discrimination as we all work for same employers
Distribution as a whole is much the same as retail with several tiers of terms and conditions.
Newer sites already have reduced premiums and different payment windows.
Some older sites have different contracts and terms within the same location.
So as a question of a claim of victimisation in comparison with distribution, distribution in general has already suffered a loss of premiums as new sites are opened.
Its difficult to challenge when all those who apply as a new starters or transfer in from elsewhere make a choice to accept the new terms, so it couldn't be argued that it is a forced change with no choice.
That's not to say you don't have a point, if it is certain that in retail one of the main objectives is to harmonise pay, to reduce multi tiered contracts in the same location, then your question is very valid and constructive.
A business concern/need should be applied consistently for it to be seen as credible and fair.
I believe the reason is solely paving the way to get you up to the living wage, in distribution most are at it or above it anyway, that's not to say they wouldn't do it anyway just cause they can. It is however definitely more difficult to action in distribution. You have one negotiating group, distribution has more than a few which make blanket changes to terms very difficult to negotiate and apply.
I can assure you Distribution are quietly worrying the approach will be applied their too.
I could speculate what would happen in that scenario but it would be mostly speculation other than it would be an extremely difficult time the likes of which distribution has never seen ( I am not implying industrial action).
In all fairness to this site, discussing the rights or wrongs of this change is really academic here, particularly when an opinion is without reasoning. Only a tribunal or a court will decide for sure.
Its difficult, my personal belief is a constructive well detailed reasoned challenge will win and prove the change unjust, we have seen from posts on this site that ACAS's view of the situation has changed, if posts on this site are correct then they have said the more people complain the more they are likely to scrutinise the deal.
It really is a case of YOU must say if YOU are not happy and don't agree to this change.
Predominately your Contract is about YOU and the company.
Vortex: The agreement that new starters should only get 1.5x on Sunday (whenever that was) would not have changed the existing double timers contract agreement.
As I understand it there is a single generic contract and then addendum's added to individuals personal files/contract to say what, if any, differences there are to that individuals terms and conditions.
So the document that bugsbunny mentions above would seem to be part of theirs. Each Sunday contracted double timer should have the same I guess.
It would be interesting to see how many have them in their personal files. Perhaps they should all ask their PM's to see them.
>:D
Well said Duracell :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
I don't know how to go about it, bout it may be worth setting up a nationwide petition, to give to Dave Lewis.
And as for those who think it's fair that longer serving staff members should be on the same rates as newer staff. You new the rates and accepted them when you signed your Co tract, just as we did. Nobody forced your hand.
Also night workers who are losing premium. This is to be compensated for 18 months. However, the new pay rise is to be deducted from the compensation, so everyone,old or new is losing money. How is this a "FAIR" pay deal?
If you are made to have a change which results in you getting protected pay, then that protected pay is reduced by the amount of any pay rise that happens after it starts, as well as by a certain % after 12 months.
This lump sum is being worked out in a similar way.
(Not that I'm saying it's fair, tho.)
Don't forget that the rise in your personal tax allowance will also offset any loss in take home pay and even if you are only £2.00 better off there is no loss therefore no 18 month pay out.
Totally agree Nightworker23 and Antico. T**co are so crafty do they think we are so stupid we don't know what they are doing. Surely someone must know a solicitor or know how we can take this to a tribunal without it costing us all a fortune. There must be a way we can stop them doing this to us.
contact the MP whose details are given in another thread. :thumbup:
Quote from: Nightworker23 on 23-02-16, 07:19PM
I don't know how to go about it, bout it may be worth setting up a nationwide petition, to give to Dave Lewis.
And as for those who think it's fair that longer serving staff members should be on the same rates as newer staff. You new the rates and accepted them when you signed your Co tract, just as we did. Nobody forced your hand.
Also night workers who are losing premium. This is to be compensated for 18 months. However, the new pay rise is to be deducted from the compensation, so everyone,old or new is losing money. How is this a "FAIR" pay deal?
A petition for Dave Lewis? Won't change a thing I'm afraid. This is all business for him. Tesco can remove premiums with minimum fuss if they want to..and doing it during a pay rise to mitigate the decrease?
Tesco know exactly what they are doing.
Fairness doesn't come into it.
Quote from: antico on 23-02-16, 09:34PM
Don't forget that the rise in your personal tax allowance will also offset any loss in take home pay and even if you are only £2.00 better off there is no loss therefore no 18 month pay out.
The Personal allowance from the Government will have nothing to do with the amount you receive, your claim or lump sum will be based on your monthly gross pay, pre and post July 1st.
Where-after taking in to account the overall improvements to the pay and benefits package and the changes to premium payments, overtime rate, or location pay- if the combined changes result in a net financial loss, that employee will be entitled to an 18mths lump sum cushion to help them make the transition. The calculation period used to determine whether someone qualifies for the payment will be their earnings in the year January 2015-December2015. If an individual has a net financial loss as a result of the combined changes, this will be confirmed to them by June 2016.
BUT it will be done on NET (take home) pay from last year and then TAX and N.I.taken off it!! So really you have paid tax and NI twice!!! >:(
Quote from: Daftjoe on 24-02-16, 09:24AM
BUT it will be done on NET (take home) pay from last year and then TAX and N.I.taken off it!! So really you have paid tax and NI twice!!! >:(
I keep saying this !!!! And when I brought this up in the pay briefing meeting I was told that I was wrong . It will be interesting to see what the final figures are and I think we could be in for a shock . Anyone agree ?
It's the lump sum cushion payment that will be subject to the usual deductions for tax and N I. and yes the personal allowance will make a difference as from April you will have a higher tax free allowance £ 11,000 p.a. meaning your take home pay will be a little bit higher.
Yes, but if the figures they are using for last year are net, and the ones that they use for next year are net as well, then the difference will be net! So how can it be right to pay tax and NI on it again???
All those putting in grievances in against the company over double time, just be careful what you wish for
Let's say it goes to acas/courts , before 3rd July, I would not be surprised if Tesco cancel/suspend the pay rise for all colleagues until the outcome is known!
How do you think the 85% of colleagues are going to react to the 15% then!
And what happens if you actually win!
Do you think Tesco will then continue to give pay rises when they do not have to!
They will slash and burn everything they can to claw back the money!
Yes I can understand the position that some of the 15% are in, but you were always going to lose double time at some point, just like Saturday premiums beforehand etc!
If Tesco have completed it legally that's for you to decide, but if they haven't they will come back with all guns blazing the following year and remove them legally and knowing Tesco make you even worse off than now!
As we all know Tesco likes to hold a grudge!
This time On wage negotiations tesco didn't even want to give a wage rise at all ,also they wanted to make staff wait three days before getting sick pay fact.so it looks like they will make long term staff wait three days for sick on next negotiations so they can pay towards 2020 wages.all doom and gloom but can you please work harder lol.
MORRIS999: So what you are saying is that if someone commits an illegal act that should be ignored just in case when they are punished they then commit a worse one. I'm not so sure that is the way the British legal system is designed to work!!
Imagine if someone is guilty of GBH but they are let off just in case they commit murder if they are punished!!
Each case must be treated on its merits and if Tesco want to be vindictive then it is their company to do that but it must be vindictive legally and accept the consequences of its actions likewise.
Daftjoe, that's not what I'm saying at all!
As far as I'm aware Tesco have done what they have done with double time legally!
Some people on here believe differently!
It's up to them to then decide what they do about it!
All I'm saying is that there could be consequences to there actions and to think it through!
Yes it's Tesco's company and of course they can be as vindictive as they want as long as its legal!
Again if Tesco lose, then they will come back and do it again, but I can assure you they will make sure what they do is legally tight!
And knowing that Tesco can be vindictive they will take more legally!
Quote from: Daftjoe on 24-02-16, 02:29PM
Yes, but if the figures they are using for last year are net, and the ones that they use for next year are net as well, then the difference will be net! So how can it be right to pay tax and NI on it again???
No, the
net difference between what you worked and earned in 2015 and what you would earn under the same circumstances on the new arrangements in 2016. Not the net difference between the net pay.
I've been following this subject with interest since last posting.
With regards to the legality of the pay deal, I remain firm that it is compliant with legislation.
As stated on numerous occasions, I suggest those affected who doubt this, seek professional advice from a solicitor and sit down with them with all necessary paperwork/contracts to hand.
It's as simple as that.
Other avenues need to be explored and are of more importance than arguing to and fro about a matter that cannot be undone for reasons already given.
Good to hear from you Loki I hope the changes are not going to hit you too much
They hit me enough.
YAY , Loki . Wool Woop ! :thumbup:
Morriss999 I don't give a damn about the other 85% of staff. I don't see them backing me especially the non contracted staff who are getting a pay out. I am fighting for myself and the other contracted double timers. who are long serving staff, and losing a lot of money. how would you feel if you had to do the same job the same hours for less pay? The other 85% of staff can look after themselves and when they want my backing in the future I will remind them of this.
Bugsbunny . I take it then that you were loud in your protests at the terms the 85% were employed on when the contracts changed ?
Quote from: bugsbunny on 28-02-16, 04:42PM
Morriss999 I don't give a damn about the other 85% of staff. I don't see them backing me especially the non contracted staff who are getting a pay out. I am fighting for myself and the other contracted double timers. who are long serving staff, and losing a lot of money. how would you feel if you had to do the same job the same hours for less pay? The other 85% of staff can look after themselves and when they want my backing in the future I will remind them of this.
Makes me laugh admitting you don't care about changes to others contracts but expecting people to shout from the rooftops for changes that affect you, very hypocritical you didn't complain when new starter contracts entitled them to less than you yet still took the pay rises. It's times like this I wish there were no premiums at all.
I've said it before a large number of current employees shouted long and loud on the issue of new employees being employed on less favourable T&C's/wages/premiums. The same answer was always forthcoming that there was nothing that could be done as they were not as yet employees nor were they members of union.
I am not asking anyone to shout from the rooftops for me. I am quite capable of doing it myself. but other people are not, so as long as they don't want me to help them that's fine. I took my job on the contract I did, which was double time. People that took theirs after 1999 knew what terms they were getting, they did not have to take the job plenty of jobs out there. If they got rid of all premiums I wonder who would shout the loudest then! I wonder who would also work on a sunday it certainly would not be me. maybe that's what they should do Bleh
Bugs Bunny , so you will not help anyone from the new contracts ? 85 % of the staff ? I can see you booted out for conduct soon then . No double time on the dole !
cant see that at all Bandersnatch. why would I have to help the other 85% ?
All staff should stick together = end of!
This company is taking us all for a ride for all it's greedy mistakes and bad investments, we are having to pay for it all. Yet we squabble amongst ourselves and the top brass are smiling, they are loving it.
We are the guys on the floor. DEMAND talks with your union and get things working back in your favour. You are paying them to do a job, you pay them, they don't pay you!
Well said me little pork chop. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Quote from: bugsbunny on 28-02-16, 06:56PM
cant see that at all Bandersnatch. why would I have to help the other 85% ?
Ever heard of reasonable request ? With your attitude you will be asked to work with one of those 85 % one day and refuse from what you say . I take my hat off to any rep that gets you off that one ! If that is your dinosaur point of view maybe it's better you left .
Just as a point of interest.
The stated 85% - 15% split, Is this a true interpretation of the facts?
The company have said that the minority (15%) is a number of 50,000 staff.
If we try and do a calculation, the only way 50,000 is 15%, is if it is a percentage of total UK staff.
350,000 total gives a % around 15% as 50,000.
So if you exclude all that are NOT AFFECTED by this pay deal, Distribution, Banking, All Managers at All levels and any other area that is not "Retail", It isn't 85% -15% as suggested.
Of the Collective Bargaining group AFFECTED by the Deal its different its probably closer to 65% - 35%.
Now as far as union membership goes, how many of Number are Union members, so consider for a second if a ballot took place, with only Union members able to vote, what would the % split be then?
It would be interesting to see:
Of those affected by the "Deal".
% of union members who see a cut in premiums and take home pay.
% of members who only stand to gain by a 3.1% rise.
Beause it isn't 15% - 85% FOR SURE.
Probably another reason for the call to give up the vote, Union Votes unlikely to see a substantial majority decision!
Can we all calm down a little, please. I have a sense that bugsbunny is referring to 'helping' with T&C battles rather than helping with the work in store.
Good point Nomad . I will assume that is the case. :thumbup:
bugsbunny
There are many who are unaffected by the current bullshist who do care about those that are affected and would like in anyway to help. However, coordination is the key, and whilst we fight against each other there can be no coordination. :thumbup:
Miss Piggy
'All staff should stick together = end of!
This company is taking us all for a ride for all it's greedy mistakes and bad investments, we are having to pay for it all. Yet we squabble amongst ourselves and the top brass are smiling, they are loving it.
We are the guys on the floor. DEMAND talks with your union and get things working back in your favour. You are paying them to do a job, you pay them, they don't pay you!'
Totally agree :thumbup:
Duracell
Given your figures, could derecognition of USDAW be a possible goer :question:
I think you have more chance of P Clarke getting his old job back.
Even I couldn't imagine the spin that would be put against such a proposal.
Have you read the link elsewhere on here provided by Beverly, my reading of it gives me a half-a-hope. :question:
What do you see, when you look at it. :question:
What major or minor hurdles do you see, for at-least getting some form of initiative off the ground. Even if it is just a shot-accross-the-bow :question: :thumbup:
ps I was thinking along the lines of membership of the Union if the Union membership of the shopworkers excluding those unaffected is below 50%. what thinks you :question: :thumbup:
OR, even if the total of Union members across Tesco is less than 50%
I see a % of retail staff unhappy.
What % are union members is unknown.
Does recognition %'s have to be across all staff or just "a particular group".
How would the actual %'s be realised in the effort to de-recognise the union?
Would there need to be another union in the sidelines to avoid claims against the effort to de-recognise as depriving a right to representation?
Wikipedia has USDAW total membership @ 433,000 members. How many of them are tied to a TESDAW Agreement?
They have members with other retailers/distribution/service industry, so even if you said 1/3 of its members are tied to a TESDAW agreement that is roughly 144,000, which is less than 50% of the company's 350,000 staff.
Ball park figures based on what is available, but I dare closer to reality than any spinned version.
Thank you for the info and you thoughts Duracell :thumbup:
In my view derecognition would not be the ultimate aim. The use of the derecognition procedure would serve as a means to an end, that end being at the conciliation stage. At the conciliation stage a proposal could be made, derecognition of the union or an end to the partnership. It is my guess that for its own survival (within tesco) USDAW would chose to end the partnership and we would get the union that we want, a union that ballots its members (for good or bad) on important issues. Yes I can see that during ballots there may still be low turn-outs, but at-least we will have been given the opportunity and can stop blaming our spineless union when things go wrong and start looking at ourselves.
Yes I realize that the above is unlikely but lets be honest we are all talk (and theorizing) and no action on here when it comes to the Partnership, so what harm is a little more talk (and theorizing) going to do. Although if i could see a clear route to the end explained earlier, I would pounce on it and take the fight to tesdaw (by myself) without hesitation, all I need is some confirmation from reliable and knowledgeable members of my peer group that I am not overlooking something obvious (which I have to admit is a trait/weakness of mine). :thumbup:
Quote from: optout on 29-02-16, 05:02AM
... all I need is some confirmation from reliable and knowledgeable members of my peer group that I am not overlooking something obvious (which I have to admit is a trait/weakness of mine). :thumbup:
From the Colleague Handbook 2014.
QuoteFrom time to time, to reflect the needs of the business or changing legislation it may be necessary to replace, remove or make changes to Company policy and terms and conditions. We will consult with the Union should such changes need to be made but we reserve the right to make any such changes.
How obvious is that?
I was talking about derecognition of the union?????
Quote from: the-vortex on 29-02-16, 11:59PM
Quote from: optout on 29-02-16, 05:02AM
... all I need is some confirmation from reliable and knowledgeable members of my peer group that I am not overlooking something obvious (which I have to admit is a trait/weakness of mine). :thumbup:
From the Colleague Handbook 2014.
QuoteFrom time to time, to reflect the needs of the business or changing legislation it may be necessary to replace, remove or make changes to Company policy and terms and conditions. We will consult with the Union should such changes need to be made but we reserve the right to make any such changes.
How obvious is that?
How will company explain in court(if we take it that far) that they will change the T & C's for the needs of business or legislation?
Legislation = changes because of law.
Needs of business = the company would need to explain in court how it is "needs of the business", that an employee contract is to be changed.(because we want to make more money would not suffice!)
They still have to remain within legal limits as to change of contracts etc. Once they step outside this, it's a different ball game.
Quote from: optout on 01-03-16, 12:03AM
I was talking about derecognition of the union?????
It's a headache and time consuming. That's all I'm saying.
Not much that is worthwhile is easy, and very importantly (and reassuringly to me) you of all people (with the often specialist knowledge you bring) did not dismiss the idea :question: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Anyone know about staff going on strike in Ireland? Pity we don't have mandate rather than useless USDAW
Yes bugsbunny heres a link to a press report www.beat102103.com/news/tesco-staff-may-strike-union-warns/ (http://www.beat102103.com/news/tesco-staff-may-strike-union-warns/)
We can only hope it will spread to the english. >:D
This lump sum is all very well but it will be worked out on jan 15- dec 15 pay V year expected earnings after new premiums and 3.1% the difference will be paid in a lump sum to = 18 months payments, so as i see it you have that buffer for 18 months then you will be earning less then you were in 2015 if there are no other pay increases, or even less if this is repeated to bring sunday to single time! Usdaw praises a good deal was struck, really shows Usdaw for what it is a bloated over indulgent incompetent excuse for a union, wonder what would happen if they merged there operations with a militant union?
Please be aware that it is only if there is a loss that you will get the 18months pay out. The way this has been configured means that you will lose premiums however if overall you gain 50p on your take home pay there is no loss so no pay out.
sorry yes u are right not everyone will get a pay rise/payout.
Quote from: Daftjoe on 01-03-16, 08:14PM
Yes bugsbunny heres a link to a press report www.beat102103.com/news/tesco-staff-may-strike-union-warns/ (http://www.beat102103.com/news/tesco-staff-may-strike-union-warns/)
We can only hope it will spread to the english. >:D
14,000 to be balloted over action that affects 1000 (7.2%).
It will be interesting to see the turn out of voters and how the majority sit.
Are managers losing their double time ?
Managers pay is still apparently being negotiated!
But we will be lucky to get the same as CA's!
Most likely we will lose what CA's have lost and get less than the 3.1%!
They will also probably also declare that we are all back on performance related pay again too!
Something that they cannot even tell us if we are on or not since going to team managers!
They are also apparently announcing managers pay in April!
Which will conveniently be after all the EOY reviews have taken place!
Quote from: Duracell on 03-03-16, 05:51PM
14,000 to be balloted over action that affects 1000 (7.2%).
It will be interesting to see the turn out of voters and how the majority sit.
But that is what union membership is all about isn't it? Looking after the rights of everyone!
People now are in the mindset of looking after number 1 (Thatcherism I think it's called) which works in theory but not in practice. Then when they have a bit of trouble they wonder why no one supports them.
I'm just interested in what the turnout of the ballot as the changes ( this time ) affect a minority.
I'm not at all suggesting that it's an irelivant number, I just am interested because of the minority situation and change in the UK is similar.
I read something today that I found, ironic, hysterical and worrying all at the same time.
Apparently, giving extended sunday trading rights to local councils is being voted on next week ( in parliament I presume), John Hannet is mass e mailing reps where he is able to, with a template letter for THE REPS to send on to their local Papers, erging not to extend sunday trading.
QuoteAsk our MP to help keep Sundays Special
Sunday is still a special day - families can spend some time together, and we can hold community events. We would lose that if Sunday became just another day.
Absolutely laughable, considering his TEAM have recommended the reduction of premium payments when this time is worked. Which helps facilitate considerably to Sunday as being viewed as "just another day".
He and his team can't be arsed to proctect this day as special yet he wants reps to lobby local papers and MP's.
Absolute kn**h**d.
Quote from: BANDERSNATCH on 06-02-16, 07:49PM
Been with the company from the start and a team leader already ! High flyer eh ? With your no doubt heightened intelligence as is needed to reach the dizzying heights of section managers lackey how can you not grasp that when yo became just one of the s*** like me again in the restructure you started again on a GA contract , you have been compensated for losing your highly powerful and exalted previous job and if you think you are getting compensated for that again well dream on.
oh I've had confirmation that it will be based on TEAM LEADER rate between Jan and May 15, just thought id let you know. when I get my payout, ill buy you lunch..................
That's it nightsboy splash the cash.. just wait until it hits u that your getting a pay DECREASE and the person your offering to buy lunch is getting an INCREASE. Lets see who's standard of living is affected.
love it......... :D :D :D :D :D :D
Quote from: nightsboy on 07-03-16, 12:52PM
Quote from: BANDERSNATCH on 06-02-16, 07:49PM
Been with the company from the start and a team leader already ! High flyer eh ? With your no doubt heightened intelligence as is needed to reach the dizzying heights of section managers lackey how can you not grasp that when yo became just one of the s*** like me again in the restructure you started again on a GA contract , you have been compensated for losing your highly powerful and exalted previous job and if you think you are getting compensated for that again well dream on.
oh I've had confirmation that it will be based on TEAM LEADER rate between Jan and May 15, just thought id let you know. when I get my payout, ill buy you lunch..................
I like lobster !
I was wondering how many stores have actually put in grievances, protests, etc. to Tesco, USDAW or both about the proposed double time changes.
Is it just the 3 I know about or are there more.
Please let me know by private message (I know we use usernames on here but I'm sure people know, or can guess who someone is given enough time from their comments).
Thanks.
In my opinion, it will not take great numbers , it will only take a few cases where there is a serious impact on living standards (like the 30% reduction in some threads) to be judged and another scandelous item hits the headlines, USDAW will be caught up in it and less able to weather it but they should realise that.
Quote from: Daftjoe on 08-03-16, 09:26AM
I was wondering how many stores have actually put in grievances, protests, etc. to Tesco, USDAW or both about the proposed double time changes.
Is it just the 3 I know about or are there more.
Please let me know by private message (I know we use usernames on here but I'm sure people know, or can guess who someone is given enough time from their comments).
Thanks.
I wanted to but I'm not sure how do to it or what to put in the grievance.
Quote from: claden on 08-03-16, 09:46AM
Quote from: Daftjoe on 08-03-16, 09:26AM
I was wondering how many stores have actually put in grievances, protests, etc. to Tesco, USDAW or both about the proposed double time changes.
Is it just the 3 I know about or are there more.
Please let me know by private message (I know we use usernames on here but I'm sure people know, or can guess who someone is given enough time from their comments).
Thanks.
I wanted to but I'm not sure how do to it or what to put in the grievance.
The trouble with sharing a collective grievance on VLH for other store staff to use is that:
Whoever posts the grievance template for others to use on here could well get disciplined for breaching Tesco social media policy and get sacked
it could also fatally undermine the first store grievance as its supposed to be a private matter between the one first store and Tesco
it will also be obvious from other later stores's own grievances which store their grievance originated or was copied from.
They could always PM or email me a template for others to download (PDF or .txt or .odt file), to use as is with personal data inserted or preferably use as a guide for 'how to'.
Somehow I don't think I will get the sack, in fact I know so :)
Quote from: smithwally on 08-03-16, 01:00PM
Quote from: claden on 08-03-16, 09:46AM
Quote from: Daftjoe on 08-03-16, 09:26AM
I was wondering how many stores have actually put in grievances, protests, etc. to Tesco, USDAW or both about the proposed double time changes.
Is it just the 3 I know about or are there more.
Please let me know by private message (I know we use usernames on here but I'm sure people know, or can guess who someone is given enough time from their comments).
Thanks.
I wanted to but I'm not sure how do to it or what to put in the grievance.
The trouble with sharing a collective grievance on VLH for other store staff to use is that:
Whoever posts the grievance template for others to use on here could well get disciplined for breaching Tesco social media policy and get sacked.
Unless the name Tesco is being used defamatory, how can they sack you?
Exactly!
As long as what you put in the grievance is fact and you can prove it then they would have to prove otherwise to take disciplinary action.
There may be a problem with a template letter, a grievance is tailored to suit the individual concerned with their specific circumstance encompassed within the letter.
For a template letter to be of benefit to everyone, it would need to encompass a lot of of angles and circumstance and then the user deletes what is not applicable to their particular circumstance.
Also I would advice caution on using a template as at some point the grievance will need to be heard and discussed, it would be best that any individual draws up a grievance in their own words with their own understanding and application as it better serves them when it is heard.
The author of a template letter can't assist you when the grievance is being heard, if the words or understanding of another that you have used are challenged it will need to be substantiated in some way for it to remain credible as part of the process.
An example letter laying down what it should include as a guide is more apt I think rather than a generic letter to be "copied and pasted".
I would love to see instances of a generic letter from outside of TESDAW being issued in large volume against the changes. I really feel though individual grievance needs to be individual for it to be affective.
Please bare in mind if a generically worded challenge is made and satisfied, if it is made again by another, the possibility arises that it has already been settled satisfactorily.
Duracell, YOu make lots of good points.
However for many stores, There are a number of staff affected by the loss of sunday premiums in many different ways.
The grievance could take the following structure:
open with this is a collective grievance under the category of terms and conditions
section of Points regarding the legalities, Union issues, employment contract law, ACAS, etc as these will be common to all affected staff
Then have the impact of the changes on the collective group, e.g. reduced pension, pay cut is bigger for staff on fewer hours, unable to meet SAYE commitments, couples who both work for Tesco and live together doubly affected etc etc. No affected staff names are put againts each impact point to protect dignity at work and provide privacy
What you expect as the grievance outcome
Then a table of all staff names, their depts and their signatures.
smithwally
with regard to the 'grievance outcome'
could this be a list of possible outcomes that would be considered by the complainants, or can it be only one outcome :question:
Well that depends on to what degree you are prepared to compromise or whether you want double premium kept period.
So your outcomes could be:
You can ask for reinstatement of the premium in full
or
you could argue the lump sum payment is inadequate compensation for the future loss of earnings and the smaller pension that will result and ask for the lump sum to be increased
Or
you could ask for the double premium to be frozen at its current value until the one and a half timers catch up via the annual pay rises.
Or you could ask for extra permanent Sunday hours to make up for the shortfall if you are on a short Sunday shift.
Hope that helps
If done as a collective grievance then you need to have a discussion with your affected colleagues as to what the majority view as an acceptable outcome.
My personal view is ask for double pay etc to be reinstated rather than offer compromises as Tesco can then try to negotiate you down.
Let Tesco come to you with a compromise first and then you can try negotiating upwards. But that is my personal negotiating style.....
It helps a lot :thumbup:
If there were to be (as a simple example) 3 separate group grievances (one at each of 3 separate stores) and these grievances each had separate (different) demands/requests for their outcomes how could/would this be resolved.
In short , would it be better to coordinate many separate group grievances and maintain the same outcome request for all of them :question:
Smithwally, where such a grievance could trip up on a technicality wouldn't all of the concerned staff be then "out in the cold".
Whereas individual grievances can learn from each other, where one may fail on circumstance another can still continue maybe with greater credibility.
I see a collective greivance as less oppertunity and scope to succeed.
It will only take a few or even one good strong case to succeed for the whole thing to be halted and looked at, so in my view the more instances there are the more likelyhood of success.
To put it extremely what scenario carries more weight and chances of a success for the 50,000 staff adversley affected, 20 grievances of 2,500 each grievance or 50,000 grievances.
Also I would not ask for reinstatement of premium as this concedes the removal of it. View as Not gone, can't be removed until you agree to it you have not conceded to the change.
So we could/should not (using Duracell's reasoning) request an outcome as such, because the reason for the grievance doesn't exist? (or we would/should not be admitting to the existence of the reason)?? :question:
Where some are facing losing 30% of their earning, how is that ever going to be acceptable to that individual, the principle I hold dear is that for the contract change to be binding it has to be agreed to by those named in the contract, so under what circumstance does the individual concede to a loss, if it is fair and applied to all? Spreading losses? No
No rise next year, no deal.
From the events unfolding in Ireland, there is some scope to reason There is no need for a loss or reduction, particularly as other groups within the company are not facing a loss but in fact stand to gain. The Bias doesn't stand scrutiny where the individual has no say.
Other areas of the business have had accepted increases 2016 without any losses to that group.
Optout, you sort of got what I meant, to ask for something back acknowledges it has been removed, for it to be removed requires your agreement.
so is the time for grievance, when they (tesdaw) try to enforce this farce. :question:
How do you reject the lump sum payment?
Hey,
I'm asking the questions here, and my head is starting to hurt. ;) :thumbup:
what is the solution, (don't make me beat it out of you now) :question: :)
maybe those who are not getting lump sums, but did have the option of double time, but then what is the financial loss, as has been said before, you can only be compensated for financial loss or for something that can be calculated as having a financial value. Where is the financial loss of somebody who didn't use the option that they had.
:question: :question: :question:
No I meant leaving a challenge until it's applied would invoke the need to reject the payment.
I think sooner is better than later
Quote from: optout on 08-03-16, 10:51PM
It helps a lot :thumbup:
If there were to be (as a simple example) 3 separate group grievances (one at each of 3 separate stores) and these grievances each had separate (different) demands/requests for their outcomes how could/would this be resolved.
In short , would it be better to coordinate many separate group grievances and maintain the same outcome request for all of them :question:
That is a very good question. All I can offer are the following observations rather than answers.
Tesco does have the option of applying individual contractual variations to individual staff contracts such as a bigger lump sum, or freezing of current rate of pay etc etc. This would be a difficult road for Tesco to go down in case other staff at other stores got to find out about it and they did not have the same variations offered to them.
So if enough people submitted similar grievances from different stores but with different requested outcomes, I think given the content of the grievances it would have to go out of store to at least the Group Personnel Manager to deal with. The instore PM's are not really able to deal with these grievances themselves.
That GPM may well refer the grievance(s) to Tesco's own Legal Dept. At this point the GPM will have several grievances all dealing with the Sunday Premium issues
How does one achieve visibility of *every* single grievance being written and gain the grievance writer's co-operation in agreeing a common outcome?
If you have a grievance with say 30 people signing it in one store say, I think it would be harder for Tesco to ignore it and that they would realise that at least for that store they had a serious problem.
Quote from: optout on 08-03-16, 11:50PM
Hey,
I'm asking the questions here, and my head is starting to hurt. ;) :thumbup:
what is the solution, (don't make me beat it out of you now) :question: :)
maybe those who are not getting lump sums, but did have the option of double time, but then what is the financial loss, as has been said before, you can only be compensated for financial loss or for something that can be calculated as having a financial value. Where is the financial loss of somebody who didn't use the option that they had.
:question: :question: :question:
It's simple. If you qualified for double time on Sunday's but never worked them there is nothing to compensate you for so you get nothing. I am one of these people. I did do the odd Sunday if needed but I prefer not not. Not worth the extra money as extra national insurance and tax did not make it worth while for me. I would rather not work six days a week for so little money.
Quote from: Duracell on 08-03-16, 10:58PM
Smithwally, where such a grievance could trip up on a technicality wouldn't all of the concerned staff be then "out in the cold".
Whereas individual grievances can learn from each other, where one may fail on circumstance another can still continue maybe with greater credibility.
I see a collective greivance as less oppertunity and scope to succeed.
It will only take a few or even one good strong case to succeed for the whole thing to be halted and looked at, so in my view the more instances there are the more likelyhood of success.
To put it extremely what scenario carries more weight and chances of a success for the 50,000 staff adversley affected, 20 grievances of 2,500 each grievance or 50,000 grievances.
Also I would not ask for reinstatement of premium as this concedes the removal of it. View as Not gone, can't be removed until you agree to it you have not conceded to the change.
This is where by doing a good job on covering all of the legal issues, employment law, Union issues, collective group impacts, and reading the Tesco Grievance policy will be very helpful to your cause so that it does not trip on a technicality
One point that needs raising is that bear in mind that if the grievance fails, if you refuse the lump sum or refuse to work for 1.5x, Tesco does have the legal option of issuing you with notice of termination of contract and offer you re-engagement on the new contract.
At this point you will be forced to sign the new contract or to leave Tesco.
At this point it is worth reading http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/8/6/Varying-a-contract-of-employment-accessible-version.pdf (http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/8/6/Varying-a-contract-of-employment-accessible-version.pdf)
as there is an important note on page 8 which states:
Important Note
Collective Consultation
If an employer decides to terminate the contracts and offer reengagement on different terms for 20 or more employees they are legally required to consult collectively with any recognised trade union or workforce representatives. The penalty at Employment Tribunal for not complying with this legal requirement is a Protective Award. Call the Acas Helpline for further advice.
It would suggest that if you have 20 or more people behind each individual store grievance, you have an extra layer of protection when it comes to July as Tesco are legally obliged to consult with USDAW.
It would only need 1 grievance at each store with a minimum of 20 people signing it to force Tesco to go back to the union...
Quote from: Duracell on 08-03-16, 11:39PM
How do you reject the lump sum payment?
Rather than reject the lump sum, you would be better off calculating your loss of future earnings between July and when you retire and use that as a ball park figure.
Say for a 7.5hr Sunday shift, old pay rate is 7.39, new pay rate is 7.61
So old pay would be 7.5* 2 * 7.39 = 110.85, new pay is 7.5* 7.61 * 1.5 = 85.61
Weekly difference in sunday pay = £25.23
You will have to deduct the effect of the pay rise you get on the other shifts, but for now for the purposes of the illustration:
52 weeks in a year so thats 52 * 25.23 = 630.94 per year.
Lets say you are 45. You have 22 years left to work until retirement so thats 22 years at 630.94 = £13,880.62
Now that ignores the annual pay rises between now and your retirement so your future earnings loss is actually higher than the quoted figure
Plus you are paying less in the new DC pension scheme so you also get a smaller pension
Also your share sin success and annual bonus are reduced too
Now calculatre your lump sum bonus, thats 18 months which is 52 weeks plus 26 weeks = 78 weeks.
So lump sum is 78 x 25.23 = 1967.94.
Now see the argument for proving that the lump some is woefully inadequate?
Also Look up Saturday Premium, The deal offered then was a voluntary buyout of 3 years worth of the saturday premium so you can also argue that the sunday premium lump some does not follow past customs.... it should be at least 3 years worth too....
off current topic but still to do with premiums. if I were to leave my store in the next few months and move to distribution, would I keep my premiums???
you would get what ever premiums on offer at time of transfer.you would not keep premiums you are on in store. but the premiums would still be based on your start date so if your start date entitled you to double time sunday you should get that
Smithwally using your calculations over 18 months with 4 bank holidays and 30 Sundays I would be owed £ 16700 before tax and insurance cam of which takes it down to £12,500 or there abouts I am not holding my breath
I cannot understand why this is still being discussed without anyone taking their "convictions" to a solicitor as previously suggested.
I realise that after already looking into this I have made my stance on this matter known, however, for those affected who do not agree, why have you not approached a solicitor? Until you do so its nothing other than "p**s and wind" not to mention wasting energy by barking up the wrong bloody tree.
Well said Loki. We have it in hand at my store mate!!
Finally it would seem people are starting to realise just how much they may lose by these changes. Now is the time to get off your backside and do something...
Like I said, there are certain matters that some need to take to a solicitor otherwise it's "p**s and wind". Believe me, I've been through equally complexed situations such as this before and brick wall is a mild term to say the least.
Quote from: Loki on 09-03-16, 12:18PM
Like I said, there are certain matters that some need to take to a solicitor otherwise it's "p**s and wind". Believe me, I've been through equally complexed situations such as this before and brick wall is a mild term to say the least.
Loki, Can I ask a question then?
What is the best way forward to retain the double pay for Sundays and Bank Holidays from 3rd July onwards or to overturn/change the current pay deal?
Quote from: Loki on 09-03-16, 11:49AM
I cannot understand why this is still being discussed without anyone taking their "convictions" to a solicitor as previously suggested.
I realise that after already looking into this I have made my stance on this matter known, however, for those affected who do not agree, why have you not approached a solicitor? Until you do so its nothing other than "p**s and wind" not to mention wasting energy by barking up the wrong bloody tree.
To be fair it is not essential that you do undestand, like you have said you have made your opinion clear, some may well have started proceedings to deal with their concerns, what do you expect to happen by you giving your opinion that there is Nothing to discuss so the topic ends?
It's a forum not the Loki Show.
;D :thumbup:
Quote from: Loki on 09-03-16, 11:49AM
I cannot understand why this is still being discussed without anyone taking their "convictions" to a solicitor as previously suggested.
I realise that after already looking into this I have made my stance on this matter known, however, for those affected who do not agree, why have you not approached a solicitor? Until you do so its nothing other than "p**s and wind" not to mention wasting energy by barking up the wrong bloody tree.
Why would one approach(and pay for) a solicitor before exhausting all other avenues?
I believe(correct me if I'm wrong) the correct policy when aggrieved about anything at Tesco is to exercise the grievance procedure, either as an individual or a collective body?
Resolution to the grievance =wouldn't it simply be to retain the status quo and to make no changes to the terms and conditions of my contract?
And if Tesco was to say that they will implement changes(based on collective/partnership agreements with USDAW), then wouldn't that be considered as no resolution sought for the employee(s) concerned, meaning they then exercise the next stage of the grievance policy(until all stages get exhausted and it then gets moved to a third party)?
Piggy, you raise some good points.
Here are my points in return...
Not all staff are knowledgeable about union law, ACAS, employment law, contract law. You can only go so far doing targeted research via Google.
Also some staff may find doing their own research very extremely daunting and struggle
Also some staff: (a) they may have not raised one before or (b) be prone to making school boy errors or (c) not write the grievance well or (d) write points that are trivial or irrelevant to their grievance.
The value a solicitor would give to reviewing a proposed grievance before submitting is that you have:
robust arguments
That you have understood your research about unions, ACAS, employment law, contract law etc
and that your robust arguments do not compromise your position
and that there are no accidental technicalities in your grievance that cause it to fail.
As part of that solicitors service he/she can give you an informed legal opinion of where you stand. This will help you decide if further steps are required should the grievance's outcome be not to your desired outcome.
I understand Miss Piggy's point.
Slightly off topic but it sort of quantifies her point.
I once saw a divisional officer give advice to take an issue straight to Grievance, this advice was challenged by a rep.
The reps stance was that there were informal avenues and structures in place with that employer which would likely facilitate the issue, so to suggest take an issue straight to grievance was ill advised if there were other options available. The divisional officer had to concede that a formal greivance would expect history of the issue before it.
So, wouldn't any kind of arbritry body expect to see what Mrs Piggy is suggesting take place prior to any LEGAL representation.
If an individual is seeking that legal option for input because they themselves don't feel apt to do so, don't we have a situation where either someone is exercising advice they don't understand or the Legal representation intervenes and supersedes the recognised grievance route, something that as Miss Piggy Suggests an arbritry body such as ACAS or ET would like to see exhausted not skipped.
It is without doubt a grievance must be raised in the first instance whether individually or collectively.
I am sure that Tesco will have anticipated a flurry of grievances under terms and conditions and have probably thought how they plan to respond to these grievances.
By having a proposed grievance proof read by a solicitor will help remove points that do your complaint no favour or point out to you arguments that you have not thought of.
This will improve the chances of the grievance being taken more seriously if you can support it with actual facts, legal rights, a good understanding of employment contracts etc etc.
Believe me, there are quite a number of arguments that one can put in a Grievance, that I am sure that Tesco will not have thought of or anticipated.
Also, taking a terms and conditions grievance to your line/team manager is not going to work very well as they don't have the ability to deal with it themselves. The same would apply if you take it to the line/manager's superior.
You will probably find that if you hand it to the store PM, they will have to forward it to the group PM at least as the store PM is not in a good position to answer all the points you raise in the grievance.
So going straight to a grievance is the right approach for a terms and conditions issue.
If you put a grievance in against the company for loss of double time premiums what is it you actually expect the outcome to be?
The union is going to back Tesco, the store is going to back Tesco, the group team is going to back Tesco and so is everyone else higher up!
The national pay forum which is made up of double timers accepted this on your behalf, the union accepted this on your behalf!
The double timers most of which are the ones trying to overturn this, are the ones who voted this process in as regards the partnership etc in the first place!
So I ask again what is it you actually expect to achieve other than letting Tesco know your not happy about it considering the only ones who can fight this for you/overthrow it are the ones who agreed it in the first place and are backing Tesco!
I'm sorry I'm with Loki on this one!
The only way/chance you have with this is go get a solicitor to take Tesco to court!
If you can find one that knows what they are on about and actually believe you have more than a slim chance of winning!
A court hearing that you will have to pay for yourselfs!
A court hearing where you will be up against not only Tesco but also Usdaw!
And not only them but also having acas having no part of it due to the partnership agreement!
By all means good luck with it, but you need to see that putting in a grievance is not going to get the result you want from Tesco/Usdaw and is only there to try and prove your case in court that you tried to resolve the issue internally if you are prepared to go all the way to the courts with this!
If you are not prepared to go all the way to court then your grievance is pointless and will ultimately fail!
I understand the view that to try to Redress with "TESDAW" is basicly a futile exercise.
Having said that, that process regardless of how futile will be expected to be shown, and will be an aid if you can you show you followed it.
Quote from: Duracell on 09-03-16, 04:36PM
I understand the view that to try to Redress with "TESDAW" is basicly a futile exercise.
Having said that, that process regardless of how futile will be expected to be shown, and will be an aid if you can you show you followed it.
Duracell is absolutely spot on. You have to exhaust all internal company procedures FIRST before taking any form of legal action or it will go against you.
If you proceed to legal action first, you will either (a) have the case thrown out due to not using company procedures first or (b) have any compensation/redress reduced as a punishment for not using the grievance procedure in the first place.
And Tesco do say in their grievance policy that you should use the internal procedures first
Hear hear, Loki!
To everyone else; let me ask, are you asking the people who are not on double time benefits to give up their pay rise (the first one for two years) so that you can keep your (better) benefits?
Quote from: the-vortex on 09-03-16, 05:29PM
Hear hear, Loki!
To everyone else; let me ask, are you asking the people who are not on double time benefits to give up their pay rise (the first one for two years) so that you can keep your (better) benefits?
That is an excellent question.
It is not just about a pay rise for some people and a pay cut for others. It is fundamentally a change in the terms and conditions in contracts of long serving staff.
What upsets the long serving staff is the lack of consultation to the proposed changes to terms and conditions.
Also, if we let Tesco do this to long serving staff, you mark my words, you will be next in the queue to have your time and half for Sundays and Bank Holidays reduced to single pay along with Night shift premiums being cut even more.
I will then ask you:
"are you asking the people who are not on time & a half time benefits to give up their pay rise in 2017/2018 so that you can keep your (better) benefits?
and ask yourself this question....
Do you not feel guilty that half of your pay rise has been taken directly from the wage packets of your longer serving colleagues?
The only problem with your question is that everyone will be on time and half benefits in 2017!
But no I won't as I like most people do not take advantage of that benefit!
And let's be honest the money saved by getting rid of double time has hardly funded this pay Rise!
The management restructure last year is where the money has come from!
So do you feel guilty for getting a higher flat rate paid for by the ex-team leaders, line managers and Deputy managers!
So do you feel guilty for getting a higher flat rate paid for by the ex-team leaders, line managers and Deputy managers!
No I don't feel guilty getting a higher flat rate as in my experience the tl were just a jumped up ca line managers too meany of them and did the tl not get the choice of redundancy or the same hours must have shocked Tesco how meany tl took redundancy that's why not offering it this time
I am a long time staff member 16 years and why should one of my long time benefits go.the way it looks is Tesco want to get rid of all long time staff (but we all know that)
For those who object should obtain a copy of their employment contract and read the terms.
For those who object should ask in writing what gives the company a right to change the contact without consent.
For those that object after the clarifying the first two points need to ask themselves. Am I prepared to be dismissed and continue the fight and or be dismissed and agree any changes on reinstatement.
Act quickly. If you delay in communicating that you do not accept the variation to your pay you may be taken to have accepted a variation of your contract by simply acquiescing to it and not protesting.
The talk of legal advice is sound but first you should seek out the first two points. 1. What is the contract/the terms you signed and agreed 2.what allows the employer to change said terms?
Most insurances offer legal protection which covers disputes with employers or you can you usdaw and obtain use of the free service they provide.
Any grievances taken will bypass the stages and go to a senior employment relations manager if done collectively.
The grievance would be
Breach of contract namely reduction in premium rates
Unlawful deduction of wages after xxxxx date if proceed with objected change to premium payments
Quote from: jatbaws on 09-03-16, 06:59PM
So do you feel guilty for getting a higher flat rate paid for by the ex-team leaders, line managers and Deputy managers!
No I don't feel guilty getting a higher flat rate as in my experience the tl were just a jumped up ca line managers too meany of them and did the tl not get the choice of redundancy or the same hours must have shocked Tesco how meany tl took redundancy that's why not offering it this time
I am a long time staff member 16 years and why should one of my long time benefits go.the way it looks is Tesco want to get rid of all long time staff (but we all know that)
OK. I shall come back onto VLH in a few years time when everyone is complaining about time and a half being reduced to single pay for Sundays and Bank Holidays........
Wonder who will be the first staff member to go to one of one win no pay lawyers to see what they think they could make a name for them self the bosman of retail
Now e government have lost there vote on Sunday trading maybe they will change there mind not.
Quote from: valleyboy on 09-03-16, 07:00PM
Unlawful deduction of wages after xxxxx date if proceed with objected change to premium payments
Benefits
Straight to tribunal.
Ruling on whether change is apt.
Concerns
Maximum (circa 2015) 2 year cap, which isn't much more than what they are offering in protection.
Its not just about the money
Quote from: the-vortex on 09-03-16, 05:29PM
Hear hear, Loki!
To everyone else; let me ask, are you asking the people who are not on double time benefits to give up their pay rise (the first one for two years) so that you can keep your (better) benefits?
I'd be happy to answer your question because I don't find it a difficult one. Yeah
You seem to view and think on principle, I like that :thumbup:, principled opinion and moral compasses (to be credible) need to be applied consistently.
So as you brought up a question that seems to look past the "individuals" concern with the "greater good" in mind.
We hear " to harmonise" "the majority gain". The company need to fund the impending Living wage they are miles away from. We see there is nothing that can be done as legalities are met. (my interpretation of hoarse poo).
So
Any chance of you answering a question asked of you? its only fair :thumbup:
http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15134.msg168951#msg168951 (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15134.msg168951#msg168951)
Bare in mind it will easily fund the living wage across all sectors.
It will put more productive hours back into the business (every hour that goes back into the business is a productive one as you are in work working not on HOL).
It will help with low staffing levels.
But you on that occasion would NO doubt lose out (in work more at home less), but the benefits outway your concerns!
You have funded your own living wage not the company which is FAIR isn't it?
One of the arguments for the current deal being "Legit" is the process has been that way for 18 years the select "12" decide, so based on custom and practice the process is difficult to challenge, my view is it depends on the scale of loss to the individuals concerned, particularly as others suffer no loss at all and in fact only stand to gain, but going back to custom and practice, the principle of losing to ultimately gain, to fund your future! is very dangerous to support on principle, it holds the door open, we are back to a damning view of custom and practice and the precedence this pay deal sets.
Look at the terms in which the deal was struck.
If you believe that custom and practice (the way things are done, have been done are just cause) has any credibility, look at the precedence this sets,
ANY type of service entitlement is up for grabs in the name of the greater good.
(Apologies to nomad, but the principle was raised elsewhere and went unanswered where it was raised, and it pops up again here).
@duracell post 815
Then perhaps the commercial court is more appropriate
Its not just about the money... many have implied custom and practice plays a part in the legitamacy and ET would reflect on that.
The principle
TESDAW supports the abolition of long service contractual rights in favour of harmonising pay, and meeting legal objectives.
Every one down to 12 months service.
Extreme?
How desperate will THEY get.
When a principle could be applied regardless of contact or salary, that would affect on an overwhelming majority of the 350,000 staff, it becomes a very very bitter pill to swallow that most don't even want to consider.
But to raise the principle as having merit, but to abstain from the potential direction and implication that principle could have. Really!!
The Vortex
I am not on Double Time, and I am not on nights, but I would fight for both if I felt it would make a difference, even if it did mean losing my 30 pieces of silver.
This is an issue of principle, and as Duracell says; precedent setting.
Furthermore.
To any sector that is unaffected by the principle change happening in retail.
When your 100% premiums are on the table looking to get eroded, HOW will USDAW fight your corner and your concerns, if they have agreed to it elsewhere within the collective.
Custom and practice!
Quote from: optout on 09-03-16, 08:21PM
The Vortex
I am not on Double Time, and I am not on nights, but I would fight for both if I felt it would make a difference, even if it did mean losing my 30 pieces of silver.
This is an issue of principle, and as Duracell says; precedent setting.
And I would happily give up my 3.2% award, to protect the principle of "service elements".
After all where would such a principle be exhausted ?
The abolition of, for those that joined before ** -------- ****.
Quote from: smithwally on 09-03-16, 02:45PM
Also, taking a terms and conditions grievance to your line/team manager is not going to work very well as they don't have the ability to deal with it themselves. The same would apply if you take it to the line/manager's superior.
You will probably find that if you hand it to the store PM, they will have to forward it to the group PM at least as the store PM is not in a good position to answer all the points you raise in the grievance.
So going straight to a grievance is the right approach for a terms and conditions issue.
What the managers do with a grievance, is that really the employee's concern? Surely as employees of a large company, is it not in their best interest to just follow the correct company procedures of the said grievance policy? And during each stage of the said grievance policy, does the company have a set number of days to get back to the employee(s) with a resolution? And if the grievance isn't resolved then does it not move to the next stage until it finally gets exhausted and referred to an independent third party?
Wouldn't each separate stage of the grievance procedure give a tool to negotiate a resolution(and an outcome in writing at each stage) that all parties are happy with? And if the company looked to be difficult during each stage(ie not prepared to open negotiations with an aggrieved staff member/or group of staff members), how would this look at a third party hearing?
Don't quote me here but is the company Grievance policy not 3 stages before it is referred to a third party? And at a third party hearing would you not need evidence of an outcome offered by the company in the form of a resolution from each grievance stage?
The outcome offered by the company is the 18 months difference pay off!
It's already been offered/forced on people!
They do not need to offer anything else!
And let's be honest here there is only 1 person who can overrule the offer on the table, and he offered it in the first place!
There is no-one, absolutely no-one who is going to overrule him or even can!
Your grievances are going to fail!
Your only option is to then follow them up in court which YOU are going to have to fund out of your own wages!
And jatbaws it's attitudes like that, is why a lot of colleagues have no sympathy for the double timers!
Along with certain double timers hogging all the Sunday overtime putting other colleagues at a disadvantage!
And gloating that they get more and saying they would never work for anything less than double time!
I'm going to be honest here alot of the double timers in my store have my sympathies, the rest do not for the reasons above!
And we all know people or have worked with people who fit into those categories!
As of 11th August 2014, Dignity at work and Terms and conditions grievances went from 3 stages to 2 (apparently).
When you consider that the group personnel manager hears level 2 grievances, if then some believe a grievance over the proposed changes can't be heard at local level, it could be argued that, because of the nature of the change and the inability to hear it at local level, it would probably be heard by the group PM , usually level 2, so the nature of the change deprives the individual of the right to a full and exhaustive process.
I have never heard a member of staff gloat over the fact they receive double time. Nor the hogging of overtime that is your manager who is at fault if that happens so take them to task over it.
Quote from: Morris999 on 09-03-16, 10:57PM
And let's be honest here there is only 1 person who can overrule the offer on the table, and he offered it in the first place!
Really?
Mandate recently seccesfully made a claim against the sick pay application in Ireland.
The labour court made a recommendation that the company review their sickness policy.
The review is taking place. 😉
So it's not like DD can't possibly be persuaded.
I was referring to the company's internal grievance procedure regarding overturning double time removal not someone taking Tesco to court!
There's a difference and that's why I followed it up with the rest of the post!
And ilikeabeer it does happen and in more stores than is right!
Mandate are doing a great at the moment in Ireland. It seems Tesco are trying to deliver these cuts all over but the Irish are(at present) standing their ground.
Quote from: Duracell on 09-03-16, 07:42PM
Any chance of you answering a question asked of you? its only fair :thumbup:
In answer yes. I get 20 (plus 6BH plus 1) days (4 day week been here 8 years). I would drop back to 16 days (plus 6 plus 1). I wont be happy but the requirement to work another 4 days per year in exchange for a better payrise (say 3.1% instead of 1.9%) is swallowable
Am I right that the main thrust of your argument is that no one should ever lose any benefits? When the pay agreements in 1999 to 2004 were agreed the new entrants were disadvantaged by the loss of benefits that you kept.
T*sco is trying to claim that Privilegecard discount counts towards National Minimum Wage so they will not have to pay the £9.20/h plus. Watch this space because I predict that they will not be allowed to claim that and will then try to fund the required payrise by abolishing Privilegecard benefits. Remember that Privilegecard is a perk not a contractual matter.
Quote from: Morris999 on 09-03-16, 11:24PM
I was referring to the company's internal grievance procedure regarding overturning double time removal not someone taking Tesco to court!
There's a difference and that's why I followed it up with the rest of the post!
And ilikeabeer it does happen and in more stores than is right!
So a few steps back, distribution Pay review, offer full and final no scope for improvement, Not even at grievance level, staff vote in favour to ballot for action.
Directors stressing their is no possible improvement, reps suggest proposed improvements are relayed upwards, improvements accepted ( when it was suggested initially that it couldn't possibly happen). :thumbup:
Better deal
No judge
No grievance.
;)
Quote from: the-vortex on 09-03-16, 11:35PM
Quote from: Duracell on 09-03-16, 07:42PM
Any chance of you answering a question asked of you? its only fair :thumbup:
In answer yes. I get 20 (plus 6BH plus 1) days (4 day week been here 8 years). I would drop back to 16 days (plus 6 plus 1). I wont be happy but the requirement to work another 4 days per year in exchange for a better payrise (say 3.1% instead of 1.9%) is swallowable
Am I right that the main thrust of your argument is that no one should ever lose any benefits? When the pay agreements in 1999 to 2004 were agreed the new entrants were disadvantaged by the loss of benefits that you kept.
T*sco is trying to claim that Privilegecard discount counts towards National Minimum Wage so they will not have to pay the £9.20/h plus. Watch this space because I predict that they will not be allowed to claim that and will then try to fund the required payrise by abolishing Privilegecard benefits. Remember that Privilegecard is a perk not a contractual matter.
Thanks for answering the question, eventually.
Pro rata does make such potential more palatable.
Your not entirely correct in my main thrust.
If we talk about cuts as a business need, Sunday premiums being the focus, isn't it fairer to say all levels are cut by 50%.
Valleyboy gave a case reference, where ET found in favour of dismissal as some individuals didn't agree to the change (% pay cut ) the decision was considered apt because the company presented an apt business case and they applied the % cut accross ALL staff.
A consistant fair approach to all.
As for reduced contracts being applied, and new entrants seeing a loss of benefits, you have to have to lose, there was no Loss. As I mentioned in another post/thread, how can the union workforce challenge the new terms?
For the terms to come into effect they have to be agreed to by the entrant.
Until some time after that, the entrant is not a Union member.
How and where is the challenge?
It's quite laughable to suggest existing staff have any influence over the potential terms of another that they are not affected by and should of acted on, whilst at the same suggesting, there is nothing that can be done about a change to your own.
I don't dispute your view about the future living wage, I don't think it will stop at the Privelege Card.
All perks will be exhausted.
It's the principle.
They have tried to get out of Contracted Bonuses in Ireland based on the decline in profits, again mandate took them to task, the court ask even though profits have declined (company defense for reduction) were they still profitable they confirmed they were, the court recommended they should pay the contracted bonuses, Mandate have said if they don't they will ballot their members for action.
They are really not in a good place as far as doing what is fair and just and apt.
Quote from: the-vortex on 09-03-16, 11:35PM
[
In answer yes. I get 20 (plus 6BH plus 1) days (4 day week been here 8 years). I would drop back to 16 days (plus 6 plus 1). I wont be happy but the requirement to work another 4 days per year in exchange for a better payrise (say 3.1% instead of 1.9%) is swallowable
[/quote]
Wouldn't that mean you have only gained 50% of your loss?
Quote from: Duracell on 09-03-16, 12:57PM
Quote from: Loki on 09-03-16, 11:49AM
I cannot understand why this is still being discussed without anyone taking their "convictions" to a solicitor as previously suggested.
I realise that after already looking into this I have made my stance on this matter known, however, for those affected who do not agree, why have you not approached a solicitor? Until you do so its nothing other than "p**s and wind" not to mention wasting energy by barking up the wrong bloody tree.
To be fair it is not essential that you do understand, like you have said you have made your opinion clear, some may well have started proceedings to deal with their concerns, what do you expect to happen by you giving your opinion that there is Nothing to discuss so the topic ends?
It's a forum not the Loki Show.
I agree. My opinion is certainly not the be all, end all of this forum - far from it my friend.
What I will reiterate is that this has been going round and round in circles which will not get anyone anywhere and which, if you read my post, is why I advised that those affected who believe there is a breach of contract should seek legal advice.
Furthermore, as valleyboy and I have stated, read your contracts and, more importantly, take these contracts along with accompanying documentation IE staff handbook and Partnership Agreement, to a solicitor. Something which has yet to be claimed to have been initiated thusfar.
Whether you agree or not, I'm afraid this is a matter that does not require a grievance due to the manner in which this has been agreed via collective bargaining. On that basis, because the Company AND the Union have both issued statements regarding it being legislative, then the affected employees are not bound by the internal procedures. It has already gone past the point where Usdaw will involve themselves in a dispute over this deal.
Do not forget that I am affected by this deal and am very angry about it - and that is an understatement. However, my anger does not cloud my judgement and if you knew me, then you would know that I am certainly not a push over. I have already hinted that I have had experience with dealing with both the Company and Usdaw at a high level. Now this may not be relevant to you or others, but what I will say is that this pay deal may be a symptom of the problem, but it is certainly not the cause.
One of the biggest problem, particularly at store level, is that there is no ballot for members. Now, on this matter, when I stated there would not be a ballot on the current pay deal, you replied that this was my opinion, when in fact it was not - it was a fact that I relayed due to my knowledge and experience of the mechanisms of this damn Partnership Agreement implemented within stores!
Why is it that since joining VLH many years ago via various guises that I have constantly AND consistently berated everything and anything that this agreement stands for?
In a previous post you stated that had there been a ballot of those affected and the majority voted in favour of the deal, then the new terms would be, for lack of a better word: legal. Whilst understanding the reasoning behind your argument, it contradicts that which you previously stated regarding the requirement for employees to be consulted on an individual basis. On that basis you imply that the main crux of the issue is with there being no ballot.
Herein lies the problem for employees within stores.
The Collective Agreement/Partnership Agreement between Tesco and Usdaw are not legally binding to the parties. However, the terms of the agreement are incorporated within our individual contracts therefore legally binding between us, the employee, and Tesco.
The fact that the agreement between Tesco and Usdaw is not enforceable does not affect the issue of incorporation. One of these terms is that of the process regarding how our pay is negotiated and settled without a ballot. So long as this system is in place, then pay deals such as this are legal. They are not, legally speaking, implemented unilaterally simply because the terms of the agreement does not require a ballot therefore individual consent is not required and it matters not if an employee does not want the new terms to apply to them.
Unless a solicitor states otherwise AND has successfully dealt with this pay deal on a national scale, then nothing will be done about this pay deal. In the meantime, alll the so called grievances, complaints etc etc will mean absolutely nothing. I hate saying this, but that is the reality. All this talk and exchanging of views is meaningless as it won't change a damn thing.
Again, it's not the Loki show as you so eloquently put it, but you have to understand the context in which I wrote my original post about not understanding why people are still discussing this and not seeking legal advice and assistance. It wasn't meant to patronise or to belittle anyone. It's simply frustrating that many seem to miss the main problem being the Union and not the Company. This is precisely why I have been quiet of late. Certain individuals on here can attest to this.
Certain individuals here have already mentioned what needs to be done to tackle Usdaw and the cause of much anxiety and anger amongst their members within stores.
Quote from: smithwally on 09-03-16, 12:22PM
Quote from: Loki on 09-03-16, 12:18PM
Like I said, there are certain matters that some need to take to a solicitor otherwise it's "p**s and wind". Believe me, I've been through equally complexed situations such as this before and brick wall is a mild term to say the least.
Loki, Can I ask a question then?
What is the best way forward to retain the double pay for Sundays and Bank Holidays from 3rd July onwards or to overturn/change the current pay deal?
Loki, thank you for your detail post responding to others..... Is it possible to respond to my question too please?
Not being nasty but it aint gonna happen in a million years ,our double time had blown in the wind.
smithwally, apologies, but I believe I have.
Loki.
I understand your points, thanks for taking the time to type them.
I understand your view is based on, custom and practice and the history you have.
My view is based on a similar approach.
If I was to share aspects of my contractual issues with you, your head would blow up with Rage. Because of the implication it would have on your situation.
Indeed TESDAW is a great concern.
I won't go over your points as it would just be "p**s and wind".
It's a shame we can't sit down with the N.O and ask why TESDAW is practicing both your understanding and mine of similar scenarios. Does the contract give a right or the agreement?
I will however refrain from further posting, I will do what you suggest. No I am not in retail, but our issues are relevant to each others.
So let's find out what is lawful
Agreement and terms that says one thing.
Or signed individual contract that says something else.
The law can't support a contradiction so TESDAW can't apply both.
I guess time will tell eventually.
Right.....
while I have a copy of my Tesco employment contract, I cannot find a copy of the USDAW-Tesco partnership agreement.
Would some kind soul post a link or upload the partnership agreement to VLH?
I would like to read the Partnership agreement........
A few things strike me about this Partnership agreement:
1. There appears to be no annual ballot for members to decide (a) to keep the PA unchanged and renew, (b) modify the PA or (c) dismantle the PA.
2. There are staff who joined the big T after the PA was launched in 1998. They clearly had no say at all in the PA, and probably did not realise the significance or impact that the PA would have when signing their employment contract. Smoke and mirrors come to mind as the impact of the PA was not explained clearly then
3. When staff voted for the PA in 1998, I am sure no one realised then that the PA could be used at some point in the future to erode one's contractual T&C's. Had they realised at the time, wouldn't they have voted against it instead? Presumably the PA was sold as a method of improving ones' working environment, negotiate the annual pay deals etc rather than be eventually used to erode T&C's?
I must admit to being slightly more than perturbed by the fact that it is not relatively easy for all employees to obtain, if they so desire, their own copies of agreements (Partnership among them) which relate to and have a large affect on their employment by the company and membership of union.
In my opinion that is not as it should be, if something affects me I would want a copy or at the absolute minimum access to it and time to consult it at work during work time.
Claiming reps have access is not sufficient as employees may not be in the union but still affected/bound by it.
Point Number 2 is kind of irrelevant, and would not have had any impact on anyone signing their contract with Tesco!
It's just life that you accept what is when you arrive!
As an example for over 30 years of my life I've been ruled by Europe, I had no say in the matter as I wasn't around at the time of the referendum!
No where was there a clause that said if I didn't agree with part of it I could vote to leave or every few years the public gets a vote!
And yes just like the Tesco/Usdaw agreement what was vote on has changed over the years to something else
It's taken many years and a lot of vocal people to force this years referendum!
Yes it's an extreme example but the principles are the same.
Point number 3 the colleagues that voted it in have most likely benefited from this agreement over the years a lot more times than not!
How much have those that voted it in lost over the years before this years pay review?
Saturday premiums and maybe RHRP if affected by it there's probably more but that's all I can think of
Yet pay rises every year bar last year, they kept the double time payments till now when new starters lost there's, again higher overtime rates in the week till now when new starters lost there's, payment from day 1 of sickness again new starters lost that, cannot be made to work bank holidays again something that the new starters lost, again probably more but that's all I can think of!
So the 15% that are left have actually benefited quite a lot over the years at the detriment of others!
You say would they have voted it in had they known that nearly 20 years later it would be used to remove the double time premiums, I'm guessing that the 15% probably would not but what about the 85% that have since left the company from when the vote happened?
That's the real question and one that can never be answered regarding the partnership!
As for point number 1 I believe one of the reasons it was introduced was because the turnout for votes was low!
Should something have been put in to review it say every 5-10 years then yes I believe so, but the 15% voted it in without that and that's there failure that everyone has had to live with till enough people challenge Usdaw about it and demand change!
Just like the loss of everything that's happened over the years the rest has had to except that as part of there contracts due to what the 15% voted in nearly 20 years ago!
Quote from: smithwally on 10-03-16, 10:54AM
Right.....
while I have a copy of my Tesco employment contract, I cannot find a copy of the USDAW-Tesco partnership agreement.
Would some kind soul post a link or upload the partnership agreement to VLH?
I would like to read the Partnership agreement........
Here lies just number 1 of many things that will go in your favour.
Upon joining the company, did Tesco give you a copy of the partnership agreement before you signed your contract?
&
Why is it up to the employee to "search" for such agreement?
A grievance for me, is the correct company procedure as per the information given to the employee upon joining.
So we see anger and dissatisfaction at not only the change but also the method.
It is suggested that challenging the change via the procedural channels is futile.
But are you still aggrieved, the PA supposedly being based on mutual trust, isn't there a dignity at work issue with that as it seems to have moved away from that with quite damning effect.
Is there not some scope in using the Procedural route that we have discussed not to challenge the change but to invoke a review or "referendum" with regards to the application and procedural agreement.
Surely if it has such a detrimental effect and you are so aggrieved by it, then that alone suggest you should follow the process to get it changed.
Please don't say this would be futile and not possible because you are living the consequence of such a scenario and it is the reason you are aggrieved it is proof positive that change is possible.
If change is going to be so damning now (unlike previous years) is it not reasonable to reclaim you right to seal your own fate, how could such a change be denied when it was done before on the back of a less damning conciqeunce.
this harmonising of pay rates to be " fare to all" is all very well but the people this affects the mostr are the persons who have given considerable loyalty to this company over many years, and for those that think it is fair then wait for the other axes to fall because i believe that the double time for time and a half is a starting block for more cuts to pay and benefits, to facilitate the payment of the living wage fully in 2020.
What was interesting in the paper yesterday some retail head was saying that "implementation of the living wage in 2020 will cost jobs" really so what you are saying is that by keeping wages low we can employ more people most jobs paying the minimum wage i believe do so with the minimum staff needed.
Maybe the solution should be to bring everyones wage to the living wage then these ones who bleat on about not paying staff will think again.
Maybe DL and Mshould try the GA's terms and conditions.
sorry about the rant
After giving the best part of my life ......19 years....to the said retail establishment I am feeling let down as are a lot of long suffering ...sorry 'serving' staff.
Working nights takes its toll on your life and that of your family. I've been down the Team Leader route and gave that up as a farce a good few years ago.
I remember when this was a good company to work for.....dare I say ' we used to have a laugh!'
I wonder when we are going to have our 3 first days sick benefit taken from us ....I personally am rarely off sick but I know a few people who use them regularly and how will they compensate us for that......it would surely be unfair to pay the same amount to those not been off as those who have.
I mentioned in a previous post that I think it grossly unfair that us old timers are only getting 18 months protected pay and the team leaders got 2 years. Also worth a mention that our job is not changing for less money whereas theirs did. ( some ex team leaders may argue this point.....their own faults if they still running around like loons)
I wonder what I should stop doing to compensate myself for the £120 I am to be losing.
Maybe I will stop training others.....go home on time.....stop doing labels .....oh ....I know what I can do......BE OFF SICK.......NOW THERES A PLAN
If you go to OurTesco or the colleagueroom website then select 'Working at Tesco' at the right hand side. Then scroll down past The Big Six/WMTY etc you will find 'Our Partnership Agreement with Usdaw'
I have been led to believe that it is not on there in its entirety.
I'm coming from a position of soon leaving, but from what I've seen the other retailers doing compared with how tesco are moving forward I can't envisage tesco staying competitive.
They've lost at my current and my previous store all the good hard working staff, mostly long timers, and the only managers left are idiots.
As a colleague put it this week, a place of bad ideas and no ideas.
However as bad as tesco have been collective bargaining is not only perfectly legal but it's the advised course to do what has been done.
Options are to refuse the hanger at which point tesco will serve you notice, work the new conditions under protest and file a grievance, which would do little as the correct process has been followed. Or finally quit and claim constructive dismissal, which he union would likely not support as they're partially to blame, so you'd be funding it yourself, which is going to cost a fortune.
Until this situation starts to hit those in positions of power in their wallet nothing will change, it's the inevitable problem of trickle down economics.
Quote from: Nomad on 10-03-16, 05:03PM
I have been led to believe that it is not on there in its entirety.
You are right. It does talk about the P.A. between Tesco and USDAW and what it aims to do, but the full text of the P.A. is nowhere to be found.
I really desperately want to read the PA and compare it with my Employment Contract.
I am picking up vibes that there are inconsistencies between the two documents, and I want to find out for myself what they are so I can show these to any solicitor specialising in Employment law.
It also mentions that the P.A. is a voluntary agreement and that it is reviewed every two years by both Tesco and USDAW.
It is clear that staff have no input at all to this biennial review of the P.A. between Tesco and USDAW.
It is clear that the P.A. directly affects staff via the annual pay deals, new policies like TFOD, SYA, and now the erosion in Terms and conditions.
And yet Tesco staff appear contractually bound to the effects of the VOLUNTARY P.A. agreed between Tesco and USDAW via their employment contracts......
Is that not an abuse of power? i.e. Tesco and USDAW get to dictate to the staff their T&C's, annual pay deals etc and happily ignore ACAS's requirements for consultation and obtaining agreements for changes to T&C's and staff do not get a say in these discussions between Tesco and USDAW?
I find it disgusting that USDAW were happy to help Boots staff take Boots to an ET when Boots reduced their Sunday double pay to time & a half, and the staff won their case against Boots for unlawful deduction of wages and we are cast into the sea by USDAW when Tesco want to do the same thing to us as Boots did to their staff......
Morrisons went through something similar but at least the staff had a ballot via USDAW even though it was a biased ballot as unaffected staff were able to vote and they grossly outnumbered the affected staff.
Although the Partnership Agreement is not available in its entirety on the site, you have the right to access the Agreement at your store. That aside and without going over old ground about my disagreeing with you regarding the pay deal being contrary to legislation, it is at least good to see that you intend to seek legal advice.
This may seem a bit facetious, but can anyone remember how the partnership agreement was sold by Tesco and USDAW to the masses at the time of it's inception?
I didn't join until 2005 so I was well ensconced by then. Maybe someone still has the paperwork in their files!
I'd like to see what the big attraction was to not being able to vote on the annual pay deal.
@smithwally, minor but important point. TOFD is government legislation and cannot be ignored/amended by any agreement between company and union.
https://www.gov.uk/time-off-for-dependants/your-rights (https://www.gov.uk/time-off-for-dependants/your-rights)
Nomad, agree with you there regarding TFOD.
And yet Tesco use the voluntary partnership agreement to get out of the requirement to consult with and obtain agreement from employees regarding changes to terms and conditions....
Someone here is trying to have their cake and eat it....
If the partnership agreement is available for inspection at stores, why is it not online, and if it's inspection only, that suggests we are not allowed to take copies home?
Why are employees not entitled to their own copy of a document that is part of, and affects, their T&Cs :question:
That's because they have all of our trollies are around our ankles and we have been well and truly shafted by the very people we are paying and trusting to look after our best interests USDAW. I've said this before on many occasions the people at the top table at USDAW should hang their heads in shame, they are treating their membership with utter contempt. >:( >:( >:( >:(
smithwally
I won't comment on your second paragraph as this has been argued time and time again in this thread (no, not Loki show).
There is no requirement to make the agreement available on line. There are reasons why they have included the majority of it as well as other material, but that's another matter entirely.
The Agreement, as well as other particular policies, are available for you to view. They are not required to give you a copy but your individual contract must state where it and/or other policies can be found of which you are entitled to access at any time.
I just had a read on VLH wiki to see if it was there and it was.
It's referenced under RHRP
So how can the Forum side step that which is laid down in
Policies for people 2.1
Changing Terms and Conditions.
QuoteDiscussing the impact will have on each individual.
Are they doing that ?
QuoteIf we change terms of employment and an individual does not give us written consent, then even if the change does not immediately impact upon him/her, the individual will still be able to raise objections to it in the future. Continuation in the job does not imply acceptance of the new terms. We must therefore ensure that all collegues sign and return their terms of employment
Why are they insisting on your individual written consent under this policy if it is not required to be legally binding?
QuoteFollow the protection policy guidelines if a change affects an individual's salary and/or premium.
The guidelines mention 4 years as opposed to 18 months .
HOW has the forum side stepped the Policies for changing terms and conditions?
I just found this document from 2010 online.Supporting-doc-foi-12-1180-north-davey-2010-05-26.pdf I love how Tesco say they want to treat us well and reward us for our work. Also found this article from the Guardian 10th September 1999 Part of it is quoted below.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/1999/sep/10/11
But not everybody is happy. Giving up the right to vote on the annual pay deal provoked considerable discontent among Usdaw members and nearly prevented the setting up of the forums. In exchange for a 2.7% pay rise - above inflation but by no means the most generous offer in this year's wage round - the national forum signed away new workers' rights to higher wage rates on Sundays.
"It's the sort of partnership where you take double time on Sundays away from people," said Alastair Hatchett from Incomes Data Services.etember 2010 about the PA.
Duracell
They haven't side stepped it.
For the record, I'm fully aware of the policy... I put it there.
It's a separate matter altogether to what is being discussed as RHRP does not form part of the collective bargaining unit regarding pay deals.
There is a separate Forum unit to decide matters that you are referring to.
This is what I meant by the mechanisms of the Partnership Agreement for stores. Perhaps it is my fault for not providing an exhaustive account of all the involved mechanisms and various parties that make up the Partnership Agreement and the Forum process.
If you worked at stores and were aware of this complicated process, then you would understand what I am referring to.
I didn't get it from there I just mentioned it was refrenced there as relative to RHRP.
It's referenced as a policy outside of RHRP as a principle to be applied for contractual change.
Sure looks like a side step to me.
They are saying that's what we will do if we need to change contracts ( which is what's happening)
And they ain't doing it.
I get it though, your implying your forum can disregard what every it likes, decide what it likes, and there is nothing that can be done.
Im not implying anything of the sort. What I am saying is that you lack understanding my friend, especially with regards to the process within stores. Furthermore, I suggest you be careful as to not imply that I'm somewhat defending this damn union or its forum. It is not my forum whatsoever. It is a National forum that weat stores are tied to until the Partnership becomes defunct or thrown out which is what is needed!
Like I said, you do not understand the make up of the various bargaining units within the store formats.
It is because you are not informed of this complexed system that you are incorrect with your assumption of a side step being made.
I understand your initial conviction regarding the pay deal, but you are now confusing this with those convictions. It's a separate matter.
Again, it would take forever to provide every bit of detail in wiki and I simply do not have the time. But what I will say is that until you work and deal with stores regarding these matters as I have for many years, then you are quite frankly not in a position to give an informed opinion about the separate issues that form this debacle of a process.
No offence intended, but I'm getting rather sick to the back teeth about all this especially as I am affected by this AND knowing where I stand from a legal point of view as a result of my position having given me access to all I need to know. This, in turn, allows the members I represent to be fully aware of what has happened, is happening and what may or may not happen.
What I will do at this juncture is at least attempt to leave it there as per our previous conversation. Otherwise it's round and round the garden like a pair of teddy bears again.
I can see it all in black white and lots of other various colours.
The wealth of information on the various bargainig units, is extensive I agree so I can see why you may think I'm uninformed.
As for me saying "Your forum", you knew what I meant. The retail forum.
I don't actually base my opinion from WIKI, ;) I see so so much more ( and some )
elsewhere, it is easier to reference when I know you have put it there thats all.
Forums!
Yeah your right we ain't got the time.
a one step, a two step,...a tickley under there :D :D
Again, you are not in a position where you have to deal with the store process and its various units. It is evident from your replies that you are not fully informed of this. DC's I have no doubt you have, but not stores.
Furthermore, I did not know what you meant. Perhaps I should have, but I didn't as I took it at "face value".
.... in the meantime all I'm getting through the post is s*** Usdaw magazines, the latest trendy campaign and other forms of garbage whilst having to be proactive regarding this damn pay deal.
I have to be honest, my blood pressure has never been this high and one way or another, something will change with regards to my relationship with F**kdaw.
For once my anger is directed at them, not the company because I wouldn't expect Tesco to behave any different whereas Usdaw have mistreated its members on a whole new level this past year or so, not to mention lying about certain matters which I will not disclose here.
I wish you would disclose them here Loki. The Daily Planet journos are chomping at the bit for more exclusives ;D ;D
TESDAW deserves a good-shafting 8)
I'm not disclosing anything at this moment. Too many canary traps of late and hairs standing on end.
I'm afraid one hand is cuffed at the moment which is why I'm so vexed and upset off. Others have their limits as do I.
Could somebody with access to the partnership agreement, put a copy of the full unadulterated version on-line (either on here, or linked to elsewhere).
It seems silly that many of the discussions we have on here are affected by this agreement yet only the rare few have ever seen the full version.
on another point, it has been said (by Loki I think) that it maybe wise to seek legal advise if we are unsure of our legal standing. So given that, If I wished to seek legal advise, my solicitor would need to see the Partnership agreement and other things relevant to my contract. So how do I get a copy to give to a solicitor (or do I bring a solicitor to my Personell Managers office and request an appointment with personell????)
Request it from USDAW HQ?
How about going to ourtesco website and going to the section which has the agreement in detail
according to some on here, the on-line version is not the full version.
optout
One last thing, and I do sincerely apologise for my ranting, the PA itself does not provide every detail . There are so many documents that need to be collated and furthermore, as a result of this certain processes and procedures that have been challenged both at Company and Union level.
Yes, by all means, seek assistance from a solicitor. Don't take them to your PM. In your first appt take your contract and copy the forum section etc from OURTesco. That will suffice in the first instance. If they require further information before making a decision to take your case, then worry about that later and there will be a way of getting more info from the OurTesco or here. If they take your case on, then they will obtain everything they need themselves. But for now, everything you need at this time is there for your initial appt.
But, do not be surprised by the outcome. In the meantime good luck. :thumbup:
Loki, there are more similarities in our circumstance than you realise.
It's only a matter of time before the lies misinformation get exposed, given enough rope.
I understand your reluctance to disclose, it is a difficult position we find ourselves in.
I will say this though, not to cause argument, the game is a foot my freind. Oh yes indeed.
I will indeed share your respect to try and abstain from us disagreeing.
Our plights will be of benefit to each other in the future I gaurentee it.
Much appreciated old friend.Takes me back to the days of Magyar
:thumbup:
Quote from: Loki on 10-03-16, 10:33PM
optout
One last thing, and I do sincerely apologise for my ranting, the PA itself does not provide every detail . There are so many documents that need to be collated and furthermore, as a result of this certain processes and procedures that have been challenged both at Company and Union level.
Yes, by all means, seek assistance from a solicitor. Don't take them to your PM. In your first appt take your contract and copy the forum section etc from OURTesco. That will suffice in the first instance. If they require further information before making a decision to take your case, then worry about that later and there will be a way of getting more info from the OurTesco or here. If they take your case on, then they will obtain everything they need themselves. But for now, everything you need at this time is there for your initial appt.
But, do not be surprised by the outcome. In the meantime good luck. :thumbup:
I do agree with Loki here, the cross reference of sources of material to try and show an overall Comprehensive view of The PA is mind blowing, in all probability there is no rep at any level that has viewed all such material, how long is a piece of string.
Loki
I am undecided as yet, however, I am open-minded about the possible result until either myself or somebody else takes this to a solicitor..
My personal favourite line of attack would be derecognition of the union a la Beverly's post.
I am at present trying to find someway that I can participate in any venture re the changes (both night premium and double time), however, I am not detrimentally (on a financial basis) effected by either.
I do understand, your ranting and I think you more than most are entitled to it, Hell I've done nothing but rant myself since I found out and as I have said it doesn't even affect me financially or (by dint of your Rep duties) professionally. So rant away.
Is it true that USDAW offer a free legal service (probably first visit only) to it's members and would/could this be covered?
Duracell
:thumbup:
@ optout
Yes you can have a free consultation with a solicitor through the union. Though most if not every solicitor will offer a free consultation.
If you have any insurances ie car, household, credit card whereby you have legal expense cover, check the wording as some cover disputes with an employer.
Or you can seek advice from acas or cab.
Your contact is your contract but be mindful of implied terms aswell as express terms, which you signed and have agreed with, you have agreed certain aspects if not most to be negotiated on your behalf by a recognised trade union and a process that allows unilateral change to terms and conditions.
Pay and benefits is one! If this collective bargaining agreement was to be of an objection you as others should have objected when the agreed process on pay negotiated your first pay rise! Without objecting and through implied and express consent you have agreed how your pay can be negotiated.
I think from a store perspective and as loki is the guru on store processes he may agree with me for a 2nd time, the process on pay negotiations needs to be changed
A resounding yes to that valleyboy. 2nd time it is.
However, there is only one way in which to obtain this which in itself relies upon much organisation.
Ever since this hatchet man as come, Usdaw have undoubtedly been ousted as the weak union we always knew them to be.
For me, their conduct throughout the restructure was the beginning of their demise.
They provided misinformation throughout the restructure.
They lied about certain aspects of the process regarding the pension.
They have reneged on key principles from previous pay deals regarding certain elements of this pay deal. By using the bargaining tool to legitimise the cessation of these principles has finally confirmed that there is cause to seek action via the CAC.
One more thing I will say is that as much as I would like to say more but cannot, people on here, including Duracell have already made important points regarding not so much the inconsistency of Usdaw, but the blatant abuse of employment law via loopholes in which to EVADE representing its members. Not necessarily with reference to this pay deal alone but to many matters regarding Terms and Conditions. A far cry from how seemingly committed they are to cases involving accidents at work of which different legal personnel deal with.
With sunday premiums, if you are contracted to work on sunday & take a holiday then do you still get the prrmium payment for that week? & where does it show on the payslip?
Yes. Its included in HOL PAY.
just a question the new pay structure starting in july if you are affected you will get a lump sum based on last year jan to dec pay versus new rates does that mean for ex team leaders are going to be compensated again jan to june ??
chris997 u mean because we were on team leader money from jan-may 15??yes I have spoken to the union and we will be compensated
but were ex team leaders already compensated for 2 year loss of pay???
yes from may15-may17, this happens to fall before then, when as a FACT team leaders were on team leader rate
Quote from: Loki on 11-03-16, 01:05AM
One more thing I will say is that as much as I would like to say more but cannot, people on here, including Duracell have already made important points regarding not so much the inconsistency of Usdaw, but the blatant abuse of employment law via loopholes in which to EVADE representing its members. Not necessarily with reference to this pay deal alone but to many matters regarding Terms and Conditions. A far cry from how seemingly committed they are to cases involving accidents at work of which different legal personnel deal with.
A different world almost, like chalk and cheese.
From my experience, they are willing to learn as they go and are Willing to adapt to the claimants perspective.
I will be honest Even having experience of both approaches I have never compared them.
The one side quite ruthless and unforgiving yet the other like a timid pet ( as I look at my dog contented to sleep at my feet that could cause me some serious problems if it had a mind to).
From my experience they out source the legal side of the later, perhaps it just boils down to , the inept and the competent.
*Correction* out source the former
Quote from: Duracell on 11-03-16, 10:58AM
The one side quite ruthless and unforgiving yet the other like a timid pet ( as I look at my dog contented to sleep at my feet that could cause me some serious problems if it had a mind to).
An apt analogy.
I am with you on this Smithwally, I am going to lose £130 every four weeks surely there must be a way we can all contribute to get an employment solicitor look at this. Like you I feel why should I do the same hours, same job for less pay hardly makes for a happy store. The thing is my manager agrees with me
There's been a lot of debate here regarding contract law and plenty of views shared. Very healthy to share views and a credit to vlh for setting up a platform to facilitate such views.
@ bugsbunny read the posts, you have the information on how to obtain free legal advice.
The committee that has bargaining powers for stores can someone say how these people were elected, and were these people equally balanced in terms of personal contracts?
Thanks valleyboy Ihave put in a grievance to Pm got no where I was told it can be done under PA, contacted ACAS they say it can be done under PA. CAB said the same. And when I asked to see a solicitor as a member of USDAW they said I could not see one as USDAW had agreed it. I can not afford to pay to see a solicitor myself. so do not know where to go now without it costing me a fortune. I would be willing to donate into a fund if other people wanted to do this.
@ bugsbunny, I do understand your frustration and am with you on how frustrated you are. Employment law is complex and very different to contract law.
I understand you are seeking answers and you have tried different organisations for answers an you have been given the same answer by both.
Have you checked your insurances for legal expenses... car, household, credit card etc as some cover disputes with employer.
Quote from: bugsbunny on 11-03-16, 03:50PM
Thanks valleyboy Ihave put in a grievance to Pm got no where I was told it can be done under PA, contacted ACAS they say it can be done under PA. CAB said the same. And when I asked to see a solicitor as a member of USDAW they said I could not see one as USDAW had agreed it. I can not afford to pay to see a solicitor myself. so do not know where to go now without it costing me a fortune. I would be willing to donate into a fund if other people wanted to do this.
Which is what I have tried to convey, much to my disgust.
However, what I will say is that if others are able, continue to seek advice from a solicitor via their free consultation with aforementioned documents.
In the meantime:
I'm afraid it is the PA that must be tackled and the only way in which to do this is via the forum process. I can expand on this if need be, but am short of time at this particular moment.
What's the PA?
Sorry it's my fault, I started using PA as short hand for the partnership agreement between Tesco and USDAW.
And others followed suit.....
I was being lazy with my fingers on the keyboard......
And that reminds me. A significant number of Tesco staff are NOT USDAW members.
Can these non-members challenge the PA or use the store forums?
Yes got it now thanks.
Dont forget some of us dont get double time now anyway :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Quote from: smithwally on 11-03-16, 05:46PM
Can these non-members challenge the PA or use the store forums?
Yes
Ok, so is it actually possible to reinstate the Sunday double pay if we raise the issues with the store forums?
Is it possible to use the employment tribunals against the PA for their lack of consultation with staff over changes to T&C's and the PA's failure to obtain affected staff agreement prior to reaching a deal with Tesco?
Smithwally - not only using employment tribunals but grievances as well against the company for their lack of consultation with their employees. They are acting on an agreement that was not relayed to any of it's staff at any time.
Has anybody complained to USDAW as well for not working in the interests of its members?
smithwally. Read previous posts BUT above all, if you yourself need 100% confirmation, then seek advice from a solicitor.
Miss Piggy. In answer to your question - what do you think? >:(
I have just been informed that it is possible to take a trade union to an employment tribunal......
However the employee obviously needs to raise a grievance against the union first before launching an ET claim.
So does anyone know the process to raise a grievance against Usdaw?
And more importantly can non-members raise grievances against the union?
Does anyone know how to find out the names and email addresses of the area and regional PM? How can we be sure our concerns are heard at The National Forum, even though our PM said he would voice our concerns I don't trust he will. In the same way he told us we were the only store in the country complaining about losing pay.
Quote from: smithwally on 12-03-16, 02:06PM
I have just been informed that it is possible to take a trade union to an employment tribunal......
However the employee obviously needs to raise a grievance against the union first before launching an ET claim.
So does anyone know the process to raise a grievance against Usdaw?
And more importantly can non-members raise grievances against the union?
Yes, but it's not via the company procedures.
You can submit a complaint to the Certification Officer.
For further details:
https://www.gov.uk/complain-trade-union/overview (https://www.gov.uk/complain-trade-union/overview)
This is a separate matter to seeking the derecognition of a Trade Union.
Loki have you any views on the likely outcome if a great many of the Tesco Usdaw membership made a complaint to the Certification Officer? would it be a good warning shot across the unions bows?
I don't think it's within the remit of the cerification officer to question the decision of an agreed bargaining unit. The people empowered to negotiate on behalf of retail staff are indeed retail staff?
The national officer is only a voice for the committee and to offer advice. A complaint may have substance if it can be proved Pauline gave incorrect information to the committee and the committee acted in good faith on such advice.
The committee however should however be equally balanced ie old contracts and new.
Can maybe loki with his retail experience confirm the balance of the pay committee?
I agree with you valleyboy (this is the 3rd time ;D) regarding submitting a complaint to the Certification Officer with reference to the pay deal simply because of the system in place. Obviously others may disagree.
I was merely pointing out the option should a complaint needed to be submitted alternative to the Usdaw internal complaints procedures.
Sorry, but I don't quite know what you mean by balance. Could you please rephrase the question?
The committee that make up the bargaining unit, say for example
National officer
10 elected retail staff
Of the 10 elected retail staff were 5 on contracts that paid double time for Sunday working and 5 on newer contracts with less than double time for working a Sunday.... equally balanced
Quote from: Loki on 12-03-16, 06:53PM
I agree with you valleyboy (this is the 3rd time ;D) regarding submitting a complaint to the Certification Officer with reference to the pay deal simply because of the system in place. Obviously others may disagree.
I was merely pointing out the option should a complaint needed to be submitted alternative to the Usdaw internal complaints procedures.
Sorry, but I don't quite know what you mean by balance. Could you please rephrase the question?
Loki it wasn't just the pay deal I was thinking of making a complaint about to be honest it is everything about the way Usdaw is conducting itself on our supposed behalf, it's a gross dereliction of duty in my honest opinion. >:( >:( >:( >:(
@mexicopete
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb/create-a-petition.html/?src=google_sem&campaign=create_a_petition_uk_mobile_petition&s_kwcid=google_sem&gclid=CPaL4Jbwu8sCFYTGGwodc2ENCQ (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb/create-a-petition.html/?src=google_sem&campaign=create_a_petition_uk_mobile_petition&s_kwcid=google_sem&gclid=CPaL4Jbwu8sCFYTGGwodc2ENCQ)
Maybe a good place to start
Quote from: valleyboy on 12-03-16, 07:08PM
The committee that make up the bargaining unit, say for example
National officer
10 elected retail staff
Of the 10 elected retail staff were 5 on contracts that paid double time for Sunday working and 5 on newer contracts with less than double time for working a Sunday.... equally balanced
A National Officer is not part of the pay team.
There are 44 members on the National Forum all of which are Usdaw members.They are made up of different roles from different formats.
12 Usdaw Reps from the 44 are appointed to the Pay Team.
The National forum reps as a whole are balloted on the deal for and on behalf of all Usdaw members within ALL store formats including fulfilment centres.
Usdaw have issued 2 official statements regarding how many of the 44 National Forum reps will be affected by the changes as a result of the Pay Deal:
1. "
Your elected representatives on the National Forum who are themselves impacted by these changes overwhelmingly accepted this deal because they believed that the improvements that would benefit everyone outweighed the changes to premiums."
and a separate statement made at a different time...
2. "
The majority of the pay team and many of the National Forum reps are also affected by the changes to premiums and, therefore, this decision was not taken lightly. However, in light of the discussions and what is happening in the rest of the retail sector we came to the conclusion that the improvements for everyone outweighed the changes to the premiums."
Now dispite the differences between the 2 statements, not all the National Forum reps will be affected. Of those who will be affected, not all will be affected by the cessation of the same premiums. For example, some will be affected by the cessation of Sunday and/or BH double time, others by the cessation of overtime rates and so on and so forth.
However, as far as I am aware (and I do not disclose matters out of pure conjecture), only 6 of the pay team are to be affected by the cessation of Sunday double time. Now whether or not these 6 are the only ones affected by this out of the 44 National Forum reps, I cannot say for sure. However, what I do suspect is that the majority of the National Forum reps are not currently entitled to Sunday double time. What is for sure is that not ALL of the National Forum reps are affected by any of the changes to be made with, of course, the exception of the basic hourly rate.
As far as night workers are concerned, a minority form part of the National Foru as a whole let alone the pay team itself.
The entire matter is an absolute disgrace as far as I am concerned.
Loki
Where these statements made by Pauline Foulkes?
If so can a complaint be made about her misleading the USDAW membership?
If so is this complaint to be made to the Certificatlion Officer?
Quote from: Loki on 12-03-16, 08:50PM
2. "The majority of the pay team and many of the National Forum reps are also affected by the changes to premiums and, therefore, this decision was not taken lightly. However, in light of the discussions and what is happening in the rest of the retail sector we came to the conclusion that the improvements for everyone outweighed the changes to the premiums."
Thanks @Loki, comprehensive reply as usual.
The key is that the National Forum is delegated and authorised under the PA to negotiate the 'Annual' Pay Deal on our behalf. We are not privy to those discussions and, unless you know otherwise, there will be no release of minutes etc. T*sco announced last year that pay costs will be kept flat (or will not rise) so to have negotiated a rise of above inflation for the majority of the workforce needs to be acknowledged. USDAW and T*sco do not negotiate in a vacuum, sales are flat, share price is calamitous and profits have been affected by the fraud - all ofthis will have impacted on the discussions.
The National forum reps used to get minutes of meetings from USDAW and they were fairly comprehensive. Surely they could be shared with the exclusion of anything that may have a trade impact?
The minutes will indicate many adjournments over an extended period of time.
Irrespective of the initial protests and concerns raised, the minutes will clearly indicate resignation as a result of having been persuaded to accept the cessation of the premiums that many will be affected by.
The minutes will clearly record the acceptance of the proposals by the majority of the National Forum reps whilst indicating a subservient approach no matter how one wishes to dress it up.
Had the protests by the pay team, including that of the 44 National Forum reps, been made out of true conviction and a firm determination in arguing the case on behalf of all members affected, then such a stance would have undoubtedly led to the involvement of senior officials from both the company and the union as per the agreement.
Had this been the case, and the position unmoved and all negotiations exhausted with no resolution, then there would have been no choice other than to ballot members.
Alas! This was obviously not the case. Many will state that the Company had no choice other than to make such "drastic" decisions. Whether this be the case or not is irrelevant.
Why?
Because when such "drastic" changes are on the table with no more scope to improve, then regardless of the PA and the mechanics of the collective bargaining over pay, I firmly believe that the National Forum reps should have taken the decision to hold out until such time when members are to be balloted.
It's more to do with what is ethical and out of principle than what can or cannot be afforded by the company.
It's too big a change and too many members affected for 44 people to decide the outcome regardless of being compliant with legislation.
On that basis, to submit a complaint via the Certification Officer is futile. This is purely a matter of whether or not Usdaw acts, as a whole, in the best interests of its members. No doubt many will say they do. However, for those that feel aggrieved by their blatant lack of care and disinterest, then an application to the Central Arbitration Committee for derecognition would not only be understandable, but bloody warranted too!
so union have stated that despite ex team leaders being compensated already ( 2 year lump sum payout which is exempt from calculation) Tesco are going to re compensate again because the wages were more Jan to May part of 2015, not sure how Tesco got this past Tesco??
Just had text from one of my colleagues that enquired of our PM that they would like to see their full contract of employment.
They were told that their contract comprised of the single sheet that you get to sign with your hours, pay rate etc. on it AND the Staff Handbook!!!
Is this correct???
Hi daftjoe yes the contract and handbook do make up the terms and conditions of employment ( does say that on the single sheet you sign.
Thanks for that expressdude. Seems a bit strange that a flimsy book like the handbook is so important!
Especially as I don't know anyone in my store that had to sign for their copy.....
Does this mean that a new staff handbook will be required before the premium cuts are in place? Surely if it's not then it would be illegal to introduce them?
Not necessarily.
You've been informed.
You've received the new rates in writing via the booklet.
Don't forget that in previous pay deals, a new handbook wouldn't be released until quite some time after.
Having said that, I'll expect a new handbook to be released prior to 3rd July including words to the effect of "as of 3rd July 2016 etc etc...". Then again I expect too much from this Company.
DaftJoe you find most up to date one on payslipview. Last one was Septemeber 2015. They used to give everyone new copy but that seems to have stopped in recent years.
Actually, technically I haven't been informed.
I've not had a meeting to tell me anything and certainly not had a booklet.
In fact there's a few people in my store not been told in this manner.
I'm sure Tesco will be able to say that we all should have made efforts to find out these things but why should we?
Another thing I find amusing is that nobody at my store has been asked to sign to say they've been given the booklet and told the information formally.
Maybe we should all deny any knowledge of it and slap in hindreds of wage queries when it happens
:D :D
;D ;D ;D Pmsfl
Loki,as you have explained the process of the ballot of the 44 reps,is the result published anywhere?
Do the Store members know how the 44 voted?
Did the 44 reps before casting their vote go back and find out the views of even the members affected in their own stores regardless of the impact on their colleagues nationwide?
Having dealt with Pauline Foulkes before,did she have any influence on picking the 12 reps from 44 for the pay team?
Apologies, but coming from a distribution background, any reps who dared take the responsibility of this decision without feedback of those MOST affected by this decision would be tarred and feathered.
I will keep this brief but to the point:
I have numerous briefs of which none state the exact numbers in favour or against.
Usdaw have never nor will they ever disclose the number of votes cast for or against the deal. This is kept between the 44 and the National Officer. AO's and DO's are not told either.
You will not like this as surely as I do not:
The 12 members of the pay team are the ones who negotiate.
They feed back to the rest of the National Forum for as many times as necessary.
The 44 then vote.
The mechanisms of the pay negotiations under the PA do not require the 44 to consult anyone else, whether affected or not. In fact, the agreement forbids it because anything discussed is embargoed and can only be disclosed via a brief at a set time and date where a percentage of Usdaw/store forum reps are briefed to then relay with management to members and non members alike.
Pauline Foulkes has little, if any involvement in the pay talks.
Pauline Foulkes has no involvement or influence in who is picked for the pay team or the other various teams within the Partnership structure for stores. The National Forum decide this themselves.
I understand your view as a DC worker as I come from a work and trade union background far different from what I and others have to deal with in stores.
About this 18 months lump sum payment.....
I saw on the USDAW noticeboard a FAQ. On there it states that Tesco reserve the right to recover your 18 months lump sum payment if you leave within 6 months of being paid the lump sum.....
I wonder how many people will get caught out by that it they resign in July immediately after receiving their lump sum instead of working for less pay.... The 6 month period conveniently ends in January 2017 right after Christmas 2016!.
So for double timers, this means if you're a full timer and happened to do regular OT on Sundays, you can opt out of Sunday working or reduce your hours with no risk of losing your lump sum as you're still an employee.
However, if you are part time, i.e. you only work one contracted shift per week which happens to be on Sundays, then your lump sum is really 12 months as you're forced to work for another 6 months before you can leave or risk Tesco asking for the lump sum back.
That does not seem fair or evenhanded treatment of staff on wildly different shift patterns......
The lump sum is to cover next 18 months well if they leave then why would it be unfair they had to pay it back.If there leaving then I would imagine it would be to another job so why should Tesco cover them for 18 months when they are no longer working for them.
Thanks for that.
Your right,i dont like it.
I do not doubt that there will be committed and honest reps among the 44,but the fact that members will not know how or why they voted the way they did leaves them and the process open to attack.
Colleagues who will be affected by the result of this vote will remember a tesco soundbite from years past "open and transparent ".
I do not envy anyone working under this national forum,bad enough trying to keep tesco fingers from your pocket without usdaw helping them distract you .
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 14-03-16, 10:59AM
The lump sum is to cover next 18 months well if they leave then why would it be unfair they had to pay it back.If there leaving then I would imagine it would be to another job so why should Tesco cover them for 18 months when they are no longer working for them.
Using the same logic as you, why should staff accept reduced Sunday pay from July onwards via changed T&C's?
Some of these staff have another 20 odd years service, so losing 27 quid every Sunday adds up to a future loss of earnings of nearly 30k?
And that is before I start talking about a smaller pension than expected on top of that!
Chris9997 & Nightsboy re
"just a question the new pay structure starting in july if you are affected you will get a lump sum based on last year jan to dec pay versus new rates does that mean for ex team leaders are going to be compensated again jan to june ??"
&
"chris997 u mean because we were on team leader money from jan-may 15??yes I have spoken to the union and we will be compensated".
I regret to say that I am sure that I have read in some of the official 'literature' that the 18month calculation etc. excludes one of payments which to me suggests that the TL step down payment will NOT be included. The only access I have had to "official 'literature'" is the pdf's on here so I think you will find it in there.
Sorry.
Exactly smithwally you are spot on
Quote from: troll-hunter on 14-03-16, 12:17PM
Chris9997 & Nightsboy re
"just a question the new pay structure starting in july if you are affected you will get a lump sum based on last year jan to dec pay versus new rates does that mean for ex team leaders are going to be compensated again jan to june ??"
&
"chris997 u mean because we were on team leader money from jan-may 15??yes I have spoken to the union and we will be compensated".
I regret to say that I am sure that I have read in some of the official 'literature' that the 18month calculation etc. excludes one of payments which to me suggests that the TL step down payment will NOT be included. The only access I have had to "official 'literature'" is the pdf's on here so I think you will find it in there.
Sorry.
I mean it is counting the team leader rate from Jan-May 15. I know it is taking out the lump sum payment and cash bonus but even without them I'm due a healthy sum
Will non contracted staff recieve the same terms of compensation as contracted??? I know they are both to be compensated just wondered if the compensation will be the same or differ as no details seem to have been given at the original pay briefing!!!
Quote from: crabbit on 13-03-16, 11:59PM
Loki,as you have explained the process of the ballot of the 44 reps,is the result published anywhere?
Do the Store members know how the 44 voted?
Did the 44 reps before casting their vote go back and find out the views of even the members affected in their own stores regardless of the impact on their colleagues nationwide?
Having dealt with Pauline Foulkes before,did she have any influence on picking the 12 reps from 44 for the pay team?
Apologies, but coming from a distribution background, any reps who dared take the responsibility of this decision without feedback of those MOST affected by this decision would be tarred and feathered.
It is a different world in retail it seems, laughable and scandelous to us DC workers.
A real frustrating fiasco for constructive knowledgable people in retail.
I forsee severe storms ahead.
Quote from: the-vortex on 13-03-16, 12:33AM
Quote from: Loki on 12-03-16, 08:50PM
2. "The majority of the pay team and many of the National Forum reps are also affected by the changes to premiums and, therefore, this decision was not taken lightly. However, in light of the discussions and what is happening in the rest of the retail sector we came to the conclusion that the improvements for everyone outweighed the changes to the premiums."
Thanks @Loki, comprehensive reply as usual.
The key is that the National Forum is delegated and authorised under the PA to negotiate the 'Annual' Pay Deal on our behalf. We are not privy to those discussions and, unless you know otherwise, there will be no release of minutes etc. T*sco announced last year that pay costs will be kept flat (or will not rise) so to have negotiated a rise of above inflation for the majority of the workforce needs to be acknowledged. USDAW and T*sco do not negotiate in a vacuum, sales are flat, share price is calamitous and profits have been affected by the fraud - all ofthis will have impacted on the discussions.
Acknowledge what?
The statement was, "payroll to remain flat" 2015/2016, it still has!! the deal struck kicks in the payroll year 2016/17.
"The deal" didn't need to be struck, it didn't achieve any rise for 2015/2016, for those that view the deal as a neccesary evil, the hit on the minority ( %'s questionable to say the least) they didn't need to agree anything for 2016/2017 in 2015/2016 as it didn't affect ANY payroll 2015/2016.
So for those that see USDAW selling out long term members, the double whammy is they did it early too.
They chased a rise for 2015/2016, which didn't happen, at the point it became obvious 2015/2016 was STILL going to be flat, the pay review panel should of stipulated 2016/2017 will be discussed May 2016.
To agree that early there should of been some impact on 2015/16 money. There wasn't any, the 3.1% will be viewed as a two year deal, but really? All payments are 2016/17 period onwards.
So nothing for 2015/2016 as they said.
I tend to agree with Duracell on this one.
Once again the Union have misled its members. Had they not stated that it's a two year deal would be them acknowledging and accepting Drastic Dave' initial announcement on making a unilateral decision on pay roll being flat without so much as a fight.
The Union will of course disagree by stating they did put up a fight by negotiating as best they could for raise for 2015/16 which was one of the reasons there was such a delay.
Some may say that if it were a 1 year deal, then the percentage increase could be viewed as "more of a success".
One could argue semantics all day long, but the simple fact of the matter is that none of us received a pay increase within 2015/16 and that many will receive a pay cut in 2016/17.
It is clear that despite the delay in coming to a "deal", the National Forum had no intention to "hold out" in order to lead the way where there would be no other choice other than to ballot the members.
This is what irritates me more than anything else.
Unfortunately, many of the National Forum reps are evidently easily appeased and are not only satisfied with the outcome of the "negotiations" but are more than content with the Partnership Agreement.
Usdaw Organising Awards and values awards certainly do not help matters.
Take for example the following article:
http://www.sheptonmalletjournal.co.uk/USDAW-union-rep-commended-Tesco/story-28741386-detail/story.html (http://www.sheptonmalletjournal.co.uk/USDAW-union-rep-commended-Tesco/story-28741386-detail/story.html)
"To be honoured by both my union and employer acknowledges how staff and management at Tesco work in partnership to create a stronger, better organisation which benefits employees and customers alike."
With this attitude, is it any wonder why we are being sold down the river by reps who's egos are fed by flattery from both the company and the union?
Nightsboy, my apologises.
Quote from: nightsboy on 14-03-16, 02:32PM
Quote from: troll-hunter on 14-03-16, 12:17PM
Chris9997 & Nightsboy re
"just a question the new pay structure starting in july if you are affected you will get a lump sum based on last year jan to dec pay versus new rates does that mean for ex team leaders are going to be compensated again jan to june ??"
&
"chris997 u mean because we were on team leader money from jan-may 15??yes I have spoken to the union and we will be compensated".
I regret to say that I am sure that I have read in some of the official 'literature' that the 18month calculation etc. excludes one of payments which to me suggests that the TL step down payment will NOT be included. The only access I have had to "official 'literature'" is the pdf's on here so I think you will find it in there.
Sorry.
I mean it is counting the team leader rate from Jan-May 15. I know it is taking out the lump sum payment and cash bonus but even without them I'm due a healthy sum
I do find it odd that according to the union ex team leaders will be compensated for a secound time having already been compensated for this period, this will cost tesco some considerable money, so really the only people affected should be all night /twillight staff between 10 and 12 midnight and sunday staff and i wonder if they will use these figures instaed of basic hourly rates?
Thank you loki for answering my question. You and others must be seriously frustrated with the institutional descrimination surrounding the pay review for 2015-2016
Are you 100% certain that Pauline had no evolvement in the pay review?
The partnership agreement that forms the contract states
At each meeting of the Pay Review Team, there are a number of attendees:
Support Office Director
UK Operations Personnel Director
12 National Forum Reps
Representatives from the Tesco Reward Team
Representatives from the Employee Relations Team
Representatives from Usdaw (National Officer, Divisional Officer, Area Organiser, Research Assistant)
If none of the above were present, an argument could be raised that the terms of the bargaining unit were not met and therfore any unilateral change to the terms and conditions are not binding.
The partnership agreement also states the employment package is reviewed annually. Where is it written the pay review team has the mandate to review and negotiate on behalf of employees bi annually.
As it is written the mandate is only anually.
Thoughts please?
I'm not 100% on anything that occurs behind those closed doors.
What I am certain of is that not Pauline or anyone else at that table, other than the 12 Forum reps, have any involvement with regards to the decision making process. That is solely for them and the remainder of the 44 Forum reps to decide.
Apologies for perhaps misleading you or others. The point I'm trying to convey is that it is the 12 that ultimately decide alongside their Forum colleagues on whether or not to accept the proposals made by Tesco. Pauline is not present at these meetings that decide what is accepted. She is quick to pass the buck when the chips fall.
Pauline has no say on the matter regarding the acceptance of the proposals. When issuing statements or answering queries she is quite clear when stating that it is the 12 and the remainder of the 44 who accepted the proposals.
Perhaps my anger portrayed a biased slant regarding the process, so for that I apologise. As for her attending each of the negotiation meetings, I suspect not but am not 100%.
Pauline has little if any involvement regarding what is decided. She certainly has no right to decide which 12 of the 44 sit at the table.
To be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure if all the 44 are actual Union members valleyboy. Only the Usdaw members of the 44 are entitled to vote. But what percentage is that?
The entire system is riddled with complications and uncertainty.
where do the Executive Council fit in to all of this. :question: :thumbup:
Riddled and controlled by tesco that's the only reason why they want all staff in the union and usdaw get a big fee off tesco staff and tesco get a fee for taking membership fees of staff,
Valleyboy I understand that your questions are directed at Loki.
I view what was said as not that she wasn't present but rather she observered with no decision making role or influence in the conception of proposals discussed.
JM's stance and role is much the same within the distribution set up, although the parameters on what is apt for inclusion in a pay deal seem to be much stricter.
The concern about consent aside I do believe that such a difficult change for such a large number of staff should not have been encompassed in a pay deal, I understand that they are ultimately a pay review panel but such a consession in pay should of invoked a process all of its own outside of the review.
Where the actual significance of the change and the effect on those concern could be gauged more accurately before agreement was made.
I can understand the frustration Loki has.
In previous posts I mentioned the procedural agreement surrounding contract change that has been linked to here with regard to a guide for RHRP.
Loki and I have agreed to disagree as to whether that Proceedural process is valid in this instance.
When the fairness and the Lawfulness of this change is being discussed, surely there is some relationship to this agreement.
It seemed to be applied and is still enforced when Hours are changed which could incidentlly have no negative impact on pay. Yet a pay cut can be agreed with a devastating on pay with a severely reduced ammount of consultation ( if any) with individual.
They have to consult an individual 1-2-1 and get signed agreement to change an indiviuals hours on a Sunday ( which may involve no loss of pay ) yet they can cut their pay for that day by 25% without asking or needing them to agree to the change.
How is that anywhere near a fair approach.
The procedural agreement for contract change should have been applied.
It's a bit like an informal being on your file to be referenced, even a Dicipline has a 'live' time frame, how can an informal be relivant longer than a Dicipline?
How can moving hours have more consultation and a clearer and stricter procedural when it's arguably a potentially less devastating change to the individual than a 25% pay cut.
It's a Nonsense. I personally believe the decision making process and acceptance to cut premiums is hard to defend as credible when there is a procedural agreement in place that is strictly enforce greater levels of consultation and agreement for changes which potentially have equal or less financial impact.
In addition to the above, I do not trust anything that is communicated from her as being wholly accurate. I have good reason for this which only adds to my being aggrieved.
On that basis, perhaps some things that I post, but not all, should take into consideration my disgruntlement more clearly. It is extremely difficult to convey the facts in such a way without compromising my anonymity.
Quote from: Duracell on 16-03-16, 07:17PM
Valleyboy I understand that your questions are directed at Loki.
I view what was said as not that she wasn't present but rather she observered with no decision making role or influence in the conception of proposals discussed.
Thank you Duracell. Unfortunately not everyone are as familiar with me as you and some others are. For this reason I should have been more responsible with what I posted. Whilst I stand by what I post, sometimes I do not make it clear as to what the facts are and allow my frustration to create a sense of ambiguity with what I post.
Having said that, I appreciate the fact that you understood me.
@ Duracell
My question wasn't aimed at anyone. I thanked loki for answering a question I asked a few days ago... I had a view then asked for thoughts.
I'm going to disagree with you regarding the stance of the national officer, especially in distribution. Every meeting I've been privy too it's the national officer that puts a case forward for debate. This being jo or as previously Pauline. The national officer has always in my experience advised and made suggestions
The Voice? Slight exaggeration me thinks.
Supportive of the reps, etc etc.
I don't disagree she is a different person to PF though, noticeably her principled view about what is apt for inclusion in any given discussion and also her willingness to support the views and interests of the reps and members.
You obviously thought your use of the words she is "the voice" wasn't apt either.
Hardly an exaggerated comment Duracell. In my experience, whether that be in pay negs or any meeting regarding terms and conditions, it's always been the national officer that chairs the meeting with the company
Did I use the term voice?
I would be interested in a bit more detail to your disagreement to my view.
Are you saying she Has an influence in the conception proposals of what the members are willing to accept without the support of the reps?
Are you saying that she is manipulative in any way?
Bare in mind my intention wasn't to suggest she is mute in anyway, but more to suggest the role of the NO is not a 'Governing' Postition.
You did initially suggest she is "the voice" of the Union until you edited it to something else.
Jm the voice of distribution reps and members, yeah an exaggeration.
In the last pay deal for example, the defining principle which changed the view to acceptance was concieved in a room she wasn't in.
She obviously thought it was a good call though to sell it at the rethink.
Acceptance of the distribution pay deal, which group are you referring too?
The decision was delivered verbally by jo.in all except one, guess that makes her the voice
Yeah i guess it does thinking about, the discussion and decision of what needed to be offered was made without out her.
She delivered it in spoken word so I guess both points are valid.
You raise another question.
What do you think JM's stance would be, if such a deal was proposed within distribution.
The principle of a "pay cut" "contract change" encompassed in a "pay deal".
Against the principle.
Happy and encourage the principle.
Against the Principle but doesn't voice concern as reps on the review team seem content.
cant see where there is any thread on this, but it is kind of related!!!the cuts have led me to look elsewhere and I have applied for a distribution centre in London. anyone know the hourly rate for days and nights???
It depends on the DC and the terms and conditions they are on.
Some DC's are on less premiums than the current cut you face.
It will be interesting to see how they treat you in terms of continuous service, transfer or fresh start.
why would they possibly treat it as a fresh start?? I've got 15 years service lol
Yeh nights boy however if your transferring from retail to dc then although you keep your service and benefits which go with that you may not necessarily get the same premiums which a person in dc may be on with same service. They are entitled to start you on the premiums which new starts would get.
wasn't aware of that thanks ill ask that question at my interview
Nightsboy please do.
Please do ask, and please don't think I was being awkward.
At present in distribution, even within the same location, where people make a choice to change roles the stance is it will be on NEW terms.
USDAW at national level seem reluctant to challenge this, because the are NOT forcing this change as the individual makes the choice to accept the new terms by accepting the new position.
With the exception of Holiday Entitlement and privilege card everything changes, EVEN a different hourly rate to those along side you doing the same job.
So yes please do ask questions, as Many as you can.
For instance does the site you are applying to have more than one Hourly rate and premium rates for the role you are applying for.
If the answer is yes.
Will your 15 years service and date of joining the COMPANY be a consideration or will the apply the newest terms and rates for that location.
At present there are different bargaining groups/ agreements within distribution where workers transfer in from outside of a group they are viewed as NEW, joining those terms. They are getting away with this practice as usually the individual makes a choice to accept the new terms as it is not usually their only option.
Also they are applying a very difficult interpretation of the term "date of joining", it has always be believed to mean ( in the spirit of agreement) date of joining the COMPANY, yet it is now being interpreted as date of joining, a site, different terms to what you were on, different role.
As we all know Date of Joining the company defines rates and premiums. To apply multiple interpretations of "Date of Joining" then most contracts are at risk.
This is MY opinion, but a very rational informed one.
Hello. Is anyone on this forum having hours, overtime, bonuses cut as an indirect result of the 'living wage' changes? Does anyone believe they are having changes to their work agreements as a result of companies having to pay more and think the cuts are a way to essentially "recoup" profit losses? If so, I am hoping to cover this for a news article. I'd be very keen to hear from anyone - off the record and in confidence - who is affected. In need of case studies to illustrate what is happening to some people. Thanks x
WE dont trust you.
Quote from: Mozzer on 22-03-16, 11:37AM
WE dont trust you.
Feel free to email me if you want proof of what we are trying to produce. trying to give workers a voice.
Email: harriet.morter@blakeway.tv
Twitter: @harrirosetv
So I have browsed your Twitter feed.
A couple of concerns.
You say you are doing an article,
You say correspondence will be confidential.
So why are you retweeting and directing to people to someone else, when you say you are doing an article?
Also you suggest correspondence confidence, yet your retweet suggests publicly speaking out about denouncing changes.
Your Twitter feed and your proposal here seem to conflict.
In your Twitter feed you retweet redirection to another, odd direction to suggest if you are doing an article and require the info.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Not the best way to try and get people's trust :-\
How would the lump sum be calculated if someone was to reduce their contracted hours during the week but still worked contracted Sunday ? Would anyone know the answer to this ?
That would probably come out during the personal meeting that you would be having. As far as I can find out the payment is based on the presumption that you would have worked exactly the same days/hours in 2016 as you worked in 2015. I would also suggest that there might be some sort of lock-in arrangement but I admit I don't know.
so glad this site exists otherwise I wouldn't know a thing about what is going on. I am contracted to sundays so will be affected by the changes but to date I have still not had my briefing about what is happening.
I have now asked several managers to talk to me and despite promises to get it done they still haven't. Even the booklet on the ourtesco site says 'You will have the opportunity to discuss this with your line manager in the coming days' that was dated the beginning of February and nearly two months have past since then, so much for in the coming days!!! I don't hold out much hope for the one-2-one we are supposed to have in june, maybe I should start asking about that one now to give them time :D
None of our DotComedy drivers had had any meeting until last week. I had been kicking up a noise and in the end pointed out that it had been eight weeks and that one of the changes was coming into effect this week. My moron then asked me what it was! I refused to tell him. That got a response. I wouldn't rely on the morons to do anything I would ask the Union to intervene and explain why, after all they were involved in the arrangement.
I am going to ask one more time tomorrow then as suggested I will take it further :thumbup:
Does the whole overtime being averaged out over 12 weeks and calculated into your holiday pay begin from April 1st or is that in July too? Cos if it's starting this week I'll be looking to do some overtime in the 3-4 weeks before I'm off on hols - free money, init??
Quote from: aston04 on 28-03-16, 06:46PM
so glad this site exists otherwise I wouldn't know a thing about what is going on. I am contracted to sundays so will be affected by the changes but to date I have still not had my briefing about what is happening.
I have now asked several managers to talk to me and despite promises to get it done they still haven't. Even the booklet on the ourtesco site says 'You will have the opportunity to discuss this with your line manager in the coming days' that was dated the beginning of February and nearly two months have past since then, so much for in the coming days!!! I don't hold out much hope for the one-2-one we are supposed to have in june, maybe I should start asking about that one now to give them time :D
Print off the info.
Show your manager.
Suggest it's necessity rather than their discretion .
Aston04. You are not alone. >:D
I've given up asking now.
Managers just don't care about anybody other than themselves!!
Quote from: AlexM on 28-03-16, 08:01PM
Does the whole overtime being averaged out over 12 weeks and calculated into your holiday pay begin from April 1st or is that in July too? Cos if it's starting this week I'll be looking to do some overtime in the 3-4 weeks before I'm off on hols - free money, init??
From the Pay & Benefits brochure (that no-one appears to have been given.)
QuoteFrom 1 April 2016, variable elements of your pay like premiums and overtime will also be included. However, one-offs like expense claims or lump sum payments won't be included.
This means when you take holiday, we'll look at the last 12 weeks you've worked and calculate your holiday pay using your average earnings or your contractual pay, whichever is higher.
My interpretation is that any holiday taken from April 1st will be paid on the new calculation. We'll see what I'm paid when the next payslip comes through as I'm off on April 1
st & 2
nd!
Just found this in an actual policy document dated, February 2016
QuoteFrom 1st April 2016, holiday and bank holidays will be paid the same way across stores, distribution and the office (excluding a small population in distribution).
Your holiday pay will be paid either at your average earnings or your contractual pay whichever is the highest. Your average earnings are based on the pay you receive in the 12 weeks before your holiday.
All variable pay you receive such as overtime, premiums, or call-out pay, will be included in your average holiday pay. Any one-off payments will not be included
Looks like I'll be getting more straight away :thumbup:
If Mandate secure a deal for workers with pre 1996 contracts in Ireland would the same happen here?
Highly unlikely as its a different collective bargaining group.
Having said that, IF any dispute goes to the labour court and they make recomedations, that recommendation could have an impact on UK collegues.
In recent events the labour court recommended the company review their sick and abscence policy, a known dedicated rep on here has recently said the SYA policy is currently under review.
Coincidence?
Do you think there will be many staff, who are contracted for sundays, and on double time, opting out of working sunday, after their payout in July?
They can try but the most likely scenario is that they will have to completely drop the shift, as Tesco does not have to give them the hours on any other day!
All they have to do is look!
Remember according to the heat map practically every store is over manned, and if that's the case for your store then you already have the answer!
I do know afew checkout colleagues have already inquired about this and were told, yes you can move the shift but it will be Saturday evenings as that is where the store is short!
Think you already know there response to that!
What if somebody just excludes sunday working from their availability sheet before the days are allocated, or if the person is already opted out of sunday working before the heat map is applied??
Tesco are under no legal obligation to move colleagues hours out of Sunday's and into the week, if that is what the colleague wants!
Even if they then fill out the Sunday opt out form, all that will happen is the colleague loses the shift/hours and then pay!
All Tesco has to do is look to see if they can accommodate the hours or shifts on another day/s.
The heat map is an ongoing thing and should always be consulted before any hours/shifts are agreed.
It's updated every quarter.
The above is for colleagues already contracted for Sunday's.
I don't know about other stores but there is always overtime at my store, would be really easy to pick up an extra shift every week.
Morris999
I am aware of what you have written. What I mean is, what if somebody who already has a full-time contract eg mon-fri, if they optout of sunday working before it becomes an issue, this will decrease the pool of employees that tesco can choose (effectively force) to work on a Sunday.
Those already on the amount of hours that they wish to be on and who are not working sundays, cannot then be discriminated against for opting out of sunday working.
In-fact for people in this situation, I would make it a matter of urgency to optout of sunday working (whilst not working sundays) ASAP before it becomes an issue.
This will also leave limited scope for tesco to 'stretch' their contacted days, whilst trying to keep their overall hours the same. :thumbup:
optout, "I would make it a matter of urgency to optout of Sunday working (whilst not working Sundays) ASAP before it becomes an issue."
An action that I suggested some time ago that could be an advantageous move for those who do not nor will ever wish to work on a Sunday.
well that makes two of us, now which one of us gets to be Yul Brynner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XDB7GMnbUQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XDB7GMnbUQ)
:thumbup: :thumbup: ;D
Quote from: claden on 04-04-16, 02:51PM
I don't know about other stores but there is always overtime at my store, would be really easy to pick up an extra shift every week.
Possible but just because there is overtime does not mean thy will contract you a shift during week. A stores base payroll in ideal world should run at 92% of budget so theres 8% theoretically for use on overtime . Remember the sunday shift you drop still needs covered whether by existing employee or recruitment of the shift so there not going to contract you to a week day shift and contract someone to cover the sunday shift as that would put them ( if not already above the 92% threshold)
I'm not talking about them giving an extra shift but there is always overtime because we're always so short staffed, I work on nights so it's probably different for day staff but I'm confident if I gave up my Sunday I could easily replace it with another day during the week as an overtime shift.
My manager mentioned something about an online petition anyone know about it or have a link?
would like to know about this myself
Only petition I've seen is on change .org in ref to B & Q . its by Kevin Smith and asks that they Don't use the living wage as an excuse to cut pay and benefits.
anybody care to start a tesdaw one. I would myself but personal circumstances at present prevent me.
ps. I sounded so mysterious then. ;)
Quote from: optout on 22-04-16, 09:13PM
anybody care to start a tesdaw one. I would myself but personal circumstances at present prevent me.
ps. I sounded so mysterious then. ;)
If I knew how I would but I have no clue where to start?
come on people pull your fingers out, the previous poster claden needs advice. :thumbup:
Here's where the B&Q manager has started his own petition via change.org
https://www.change.org/p/don-t-use-living-wage-as-excuse-to-cut-pay-benefits?source_location=discover_feed (https://www.change.org/p/don-t-use-living-wage-as-excuse-to-cut-pay-benefits?source_location=discover_feed)
Kevin Smith started this petition with a single signature, and now has 140,673 supporters. Start a petition today to change something you care about.
...and here's where you can pitch your own petition. B&Q's gripes similar to those of Tesco's minions.
https://www.change.org/start-a-petition (https://www.change.org/start-a-petition)
It is all very well using benefits to pay the living wage in 2020 and to keep profits boyant for the shareholders but at some point the bubble will burst and it will all come tumbling down as when the store staffing hours have been cut to the bone and the staff benefits have been all but eroded the wages will still have to rise.
Even some customers are aware of the latest changes and see staff treated badly.
Alice Beer was discussing the loss of premiums within different companies to subsidise the new living wage on today's This Morning . Worth a watch if you have catch up TV .
The reality is Tesco cannot afford the living wage of 2020, in pretty much any scenario. It will take the loss of serious numbers of staff to compensate for it.
I believe this 'Project Pace' is in motion, they have no real alternatives. It will all start with the remaining premiums being lost, privelagecard and any other benefit staff have.
It's coming and it will begin to bite after the £7.62ph kicks in.
Have no illusions tosco can afford to pay the living wage it just doesn't want to, hence drastics histrionics which are the equivalent of throwing his toys out of the pram.
So are the managers losing double time ?
And how about Dave and his chums at the top? What are they giving up?
Oh well will be working my last ever bank holiday tomorrow after this I will never ever do one at time and a half only got 12 years till I retire
No word on managers pay review yet unfortunately, wish they would get it over with.
Letters getting sent out wk16/17
Quote from: tescopleb on 04-05-16, 03:42PM
Have no illusions tosco can afford to pay the living wage it just doesn't want to, hence drastics histrionics which are the equivalent of throwing his toys out of the pram.
I wouldn't be surprised if I'm honest. However if you couple the dwindling profit range and increase in NLW it will come to a sticking point. That's the road they are heading in.
As a serious question has anyone got hard facts i.e. £ & p, concerning the savings the company will make by the various reductions? I don't mean guesses. I think it would be informative to compare such with the pay, bonuses, perks, and pay increases of those in the ivory tower.
It's hard to be precise.
However they say 39,000 are affected.
So if all work just 1 sunday per year ( probably vastly more).
Double time to time and a half for each person for 8 hours per year would save
£1,123,200.00
In all probability you will not be able to realise what you are looking for.
As I have pointed out previously, the company seem driven by cost neutral pay awards, so the likely hood is that there is still no increase on the wage bill in retail.
The answer to this question is in various press reports when it states the 3.1% is costing £137m of which £38m is being reinvested from the various cuts in premiums etc and £99m it will cost the company.
so its not costing the company £137m. It is costing the company £99m and It is costing sunday workers and night workers £38m.
so 39,000 are affected,
38m divided by 39,000 = £974.36p (rounded up to the nearest penny), per person detrimentally affected (or otherwise impacted), as an average.
Would that be about right :question:
That would be per annum, so it would appear they are saving an awful lot more over the coming years. ;) ;) ;)
That looks right but wouldn't some of the £99m be used to increase the pay rates of those 39000? Simplistically, the £38m is being taken from the generous benefits of the longer term employees and being added to the company's £99m which is then all being redistributed among the whole workforce as a higher settlement.
maybe but when in 18months normality hits, it still means that they are that amount worse of and tesco are saving that amount per year. Doesn't it. :question:
If they're not sure how the 15% long term employees will be impacted individually then I would question how they've arrived at the £38m figure. In my mind surely it'd be a "bottom-up" exercise?
the-vortex, you sound like you think that's O.K. that a pay cut is justified as long as it benefits the majority. So theorecically if you worked somewhere that paid you £8.00 per hour, but later took on people at £6.00 per hour, and after some years, when the majority of people wher on £6.00 per hour. you were told that the new, fairer pay deal, to "equalize" employees pay, everyone would now get £7.00 per hour. Would you be happy that your loss of earnings, to your families detrement, would be helping your employer to subsidise a pay rise to the majority at your expense? When all of us started work at Tesco, we were happy to get a job and sign the terms that were offered. Now they have made it that as part of a pay deal that benefits can be cut to finance it, look out 2020. No sunday premium. no night premium, and they will find a way of making your staff discount and their pension contributions part of your £9.00 per hour
Not to worry as soon as they cut my pay I shall do as little as possible at the mo I enjoy my job but when they take 135 pounds a month then they can go do the other thing.
Quote from: Vanilla on 30-05-16, 07:06AM
If they're not sure how the 15% long term employees will be impacted individually then I would question how they've arrived at the £38m figure. In my mind surely it'd be a "bottom-up" exercise?
Absolutely.
It's a conservative figure.
How could they forecast the amount of potential overtime the 39,000 would have done for example, it is an unknown quantity.
It's a guesstimate at best.
So after I'm given my payoff or rip off payment can I leave without paying it back (-*-)
Anyone know when we will be having our meetings about our payouts ?
I think it's on or from the 16th June so payoff possibly in July pay?
Payout is supposed to be in July wages. 16th June seems late to be doing 1to1s I suppose the letters will start arriving any day now and people will realise the true extent of these pay cuts.
@cityboy, Not quite what you say. You must agree that equal pay for equal work is a fair principle.
I get time and a half for BH and Sundays and no premium if I work over 36 hours/w. Some colleagues are earning double time for BHs and Sundays and when they work over 36 hours/week. That in my honest opinion is unfair. They have received this advantage for 16 years or so and are now having to accept rates that they agreed for their colleagues when they accepted a generous pay deal in 1999 (or whenever). For the last 8 years (since I joined ) I have been paid less than them on Sundays (most of which I have worked) and BHs which I have also mostly worked. I have been disadvantaged for those 8 years, now it's fairer.
Difference being you never had that money in your wage packet. This year it's double time next year it will be time and a half probably but as long as the people not affected this year sit back and say 'I'm all right Jack screw you' Tesco will continue to take money out of our pockets. It's time for people to look at the bigger picture 15% adversely affected this year 85% next year. Wake up people before it's too damn late.
Where were you 16 years ago, probably at school, well I was in 16th year of working for this company. When I started we got Sat*rday premium as well, it was not much but it helped.
The amount of money involved this time is massive it could be enough to bankrupt some people when you take on a mortgage you do so in the knowledge that you can afford it, I can't go to the bank manager and say sorry I can't pay my mortgage because my company has cut my wages because they think it's OK. You can't go to the bank and say I need to renegotiate my mortgage as I am 135 pounds a month worse off.
The company should not be telling all and sundry what each person earns it is what is in their contract and for no one else to know, that is what it amounts to. I wonder if they are breaking any laws by doing this. Because in the next couple of weeks everyone will get to know who is affected as they get called for one to ones.
Its obviously an emotional subject but don't get upset with your colleagues. Feedback through forum reps, mid year what matters to you etc.
The previous few posters all have valid points. I think Tesco's idea when they started changing new contracts for new employees was that the colleagues on older contracts would retire and eventually everyone would be on similar contracts. When we agree to take the jobs on we know the pay. It can be tough working alongside someone you know earns more for doing the same job but claden is spot on, he/she was offered a job on certain terms and is now having that contract ripped up.
Half the year I take home less than I did 5 years ago because they scrapped the express bonus and miscalculated the pension situation. I got stiffed out of my saturday premium because I moved into a job where you didnt get it. I had knocked back their buyout offer every january for years.
Anyway, the changes down the years to the pay changes have affected us all financially or emotionally. I think they have tried to do too much too quickly, and this just feels like the beginning.
Quote from: the-vortex on 02-06-16, 12:02AM
@cityboy, Not quite what you say. You must agree that equal pay for equal work is a fair principle.
I get time and a half for BH and Sundays and no premium if I work over 36 hours/w. Some colleagues are earning double time for BHs and Sundays and when they work over 36 hours/week. That in my honest opinion is unfair. They have received this advantage for 16 years or so and are now having to accept rates that they agreed for their colleagues when they accepted a generous pay deal in 1999 (or whenever). For the last 8 years (since I joined ) I have been paid less than them on Sundays (most of which I have worked) and BHs which I have also mostly worked. I have been disadvantaged for those 8 years, now it's fairer.
Whether you like it or not, pay related terms specified by start date are Service elements, much the same as Holiday entitlement and Sick entitlement.
The principle you speak of As "a principle" is the thin end of the wedge.
The concept of a heavy financial contractual change for some being encompassed in a discretionary pay award negotiation is unethical.
What your experience speaks of is not, because you excepted your terms, the union can't challenge that possibility such a stance is also unethical. A bit like if they took action against Voluntary redundancies they cannot deny individuals that choice.
They can't take action to stop you consenting to your terms.
The people who state that is fairer to have equal premiums for all ,as is stated long term were employed on those terms and had these payments in there contracts at the time and long term staff will have on the whole already accounted for there pay based on those payments, osbourne is supporting the living wage to reduce benefit support but if staff are getting pay cut does this not have a reverse effect. less pay for some = more benefit.
also when the supporters of this cut realise there may well be staff quiting due to this,you will then find staff will not be replaced you will have to work harder!
A moral to all, when applying for a job/position at any company get acquainted with the T&Cs, remuneration and benefits that existing staff receive, preferably from current staff not MM.
@the_ vortex.
Imagine your reaction a few days before you were due to start.
A letter "sorry the job offer has been withdrawn because the Union have threatened to take action if these new contracts become the newest contract.
You are definately living in a vortex if you think USDAW and its members could have stopped the introduction of your terms.
Sorry but these people saying it's only fair dropping the old timers to time and a half etc. really bug me. For the record I am a time and a halfer on Sundays and Bank holidays, do I begrudge the double timers or their true overtime rates, do I hell! They started when employment conditions were better and it's fair play to them as far as I am concerned. Is it fair to reduce their wage, like $%^&. What would be fair would be to increase ours to theirs.
I almost long for T* to introduce, for new starts, 1.25 time or even standard rate for Sundays and BH and then, sometime later to say "for fairness we are going to cut the rate for all you old timers from 1.5 to the same rate as the newbies", I wonder how much screaming, gnashing of teeth and spitting out of dummy tits there would be then from these "fair" people?
Rant over, I'll go chill on my local glacier.
do not despair about our lost premiums we can we can all have a new style badge good old TESCO .
I did not realise everyone was receiving a badge, here's me thinking that it 's a stealth move to give me a customer twilight recognition identity!
Quote from: Hammer10 on 02-06-16, 07:11AM
Where were you 16 years ago, probably at school, well I was in 16th year of working for this company. When I started we got Sat*rday premium as well, it was not much but it helped.
... I need to renegotiate my mortgage as I am 135 pounds a month worse off.
for what it's worth 16 years ago I was a mortgage adviser and my daughter was taking her A levels. I didn't agree mortgages that involved someone relying so much on overtime and weekend premiums - especially I would have expected there to have been some improvement in pay that negated the potential effect of a £135pm reduction in income. I didn't last because I didn't do those loans!
I joined 8
1/
2 years ago so your £135pm means that over that time you've received nearly £15000 more than someone who joined at the same time as me.
If you've received it since 1999 (when you gave away the benefits of future colleagues for a better payrise) that's nearly £30,000.
I realise that I should factor out pay increases in the interim but the point stays.
Quote from: the-vortex on 07-06-16, 12:17AM
Quote from: Hammer10 on 02-06-16, 07:11AM
Where were you 16 years ago, probably at school, well I was in 16th year of working for this company. When I started we got Sat*rday premium as well, it was not much but it helped.
... I need to renegotiate my mortgage as I am 135 pounds a month worse off.
for what it's worth 16 years ago I was a mortgage adviser and my daughter was taking her A levels. I didn't agree mortgages that involved someone relying so much on overtime and weekend premiums - especially I would have expected there to have been some improvement in pay that negated the potential effect of a £135pm reduction in income. I didn't last because I didn't do those loans!
I joined 8 1/2 years ago so your £135pm means that over that time you've received nearly £15000 more than someone who joined at the same time as me.
If you've received it since 1999 (when you gave away the benefits of future colleagues for a better payrise) that's nearly £30,000.
I realise that I should factor out pay increases in the interim but the point stays.
Back in 1999 (and before) the company decided to reward future employees a less generous pay packet the company at the time decided to do this not the employee, you took on the job on the terms and conditions stated in your contract just like the 1999 colleagues and you have accepted pay rises not pay cuts.
How about overtime when rates were cut we were told that it will not affect the older staff because it will be monitored rubbish the people on longer term contracts were sidelined because of the cost. My point also is that staff have a right to have there pay maintained and not eradicated .
Sorry where did the post mention the £135 pm include overtime?
Do you know what I find really bad, people haven't even been informed exactly how much money they will lose with just over 3 weeks to go until this pay cut takes effect. Disgraceful
Anybody know anything at all regarding managers payreview?.letters are going out next week apparently, but no detail at all as to what they contain.
It was not overtime but contracted for Sundays I have always worked them to provide for my family even when I lost my grand parents which hit me very hard as they were more of a parent to me, I also worked Sundays as the wage they paid was very poor now I am going to be struggling again, not to mention the family time I gave up.
Quote from: claden on 07-06-16, 07:34AM
Do you know what I find really bad, people haven't even been informed exactly how much money they will lose with just over 3 weeks to go until this pay cut takes effect. Disgraceful
same here . It's disgraceful that we've heard nothing . But then we mean nothing to the company . Treated like c**p right up till the last minute . Shame on them .
Quote from: Hammer10 on 07-06-16, 08:37AM
It was not overtime but contracted for Sundays I have always worked them to provide for my family even when I lost my grand parents which hit me very hard as they were more of a parent to me, I also worked Sundays as the wage they paid was very poor now I am going to be struggling again, not to mention the family time I gave up.
When I said about where did you mention overtime I was in reply to the vortex who said something along the lines of someone losing £135 per month should not be relient on overtime and premiums, well you never mentioned that the £135 was overtime and the premiums at the time you started were part of your contract.
claden : letters reference transition payment should arrive in stores from 16th of June ,followed by 121 meetings with mm at which time they should inform you of the sum of your loss if any.
Are the letters not going to our home addresses? I know people who are going on holiday on the 17th and 18th both will definitely be affected. What happens if you are not around for your one to one?
Well just like car crash training it's now car crash communication. God I wish I could say something nice I'm trying (-*-)
@call me
You and me both. No doubt thousands of others feel the same. So effectively we will given a couple of weeks to work out if we can afford to continue working for the company.
Unfortunately the household bills will continue to rise unlike the wages we get.
According to my night manager letters will go to individual sender homes and the store will receive a 'package on the 16th whatever that means. Seems to be so late less than 3 weeks to go.
What will happen if someone leaves or takes redundancy after the payoff??? I assume itll just be taken back???
Just a reminder the new pay rate comes into effect from the 3rd of July . 2.the transition payment will be paid on 29th JULY . 3.if a colleague leaves T. within 6 months of receiving the lump sum payment, the company reserves the right to recover part of the lump sum payment.
What if you decide to drop Saturday's and take another night on after the pay out can you still have the money you would have lost
Antico I'll leave after Christmas
I phoned the Union they have no time frames
anyone else know about the conference call in the morning for store managers only around urgent pay updates?
I know it's late in coming but what is there to discuss? They already know what each individual is getting so there's no appeal or negotiations. Should just be in the next pay package!
Truthfinder what if they have got there sums wrong you know what they are like. Some of us are losing over £160 per month.
Quote from: express whizz kid on 08-06-16, 05:20PM
anyone else know about the conference call in the morning for store managers only around urgent pay updates?
was to do with 1-1 with affected colleagues and there 18 month payment.
cheers expressdude
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 08-06-16, 07:09PM
Quote from: express whizz kid on 08-06-16, 05:20PM
anyone else know about the conference call in the morning for store managers only around urgent pay updates?
was to do with 1-1 with affected colleagues and there 18 month payment.
What about it?
just about timescales of briefing and letters arriving this week and just to ensure managers who had affected people completed 1-1 using the brief in pack.
Good to know the letters are on their way at least.
Hi, i haven't been in work today, so would be greatful on any feed back. I have been contacting Usdaw over several weeks, asking to speak to their legal team, as I want clarification the deduction in wages is actual legal. I was told by Union reps that their was no money for a pay rise unless we lost the old premium contracts. So how is there enough money now to pay David Lewis a 250% turn around bonus while we get 5%, even before our deduction of premiums have been implemented.I have finally spoken to the legal team today and they will be looking into a Asda case 2009, when they harmonised old and new contracts, but didn't lose any money and Asda held consultations with the employees over the months. A month ago, I went straight to the top and e-mailed Dave.lewis@uk.tesco.com with a grievance, I eventually got a reply, via retail operations and a meeting was held in store with a group manager. I have also put a grievance in to the chairman of Usdaw John Hannett via his secretary moyrajackson@usdaw.org.uk on Monday, still waiting to hear back, which I will persue. When I spoke to the group manager, I asked if the time and a half will go, and she said, I can't say for sure it won't happen. I have had a lot of closed doors in the past weeks and I urge all colleagues to get on board now, go straight to the top with your grievance and how it will have a detrimental impact on your living standards and you want clarification this deduction of wages is legal. The more we stick together they will have to listen. I will be having another meeting with our group peoples manager on the 19th June, I hope to have some more feed back from Usdaw legal team by then.
'stick together'
are you aware of the petitions on change.org :question:
Those of you who got their turnaround bonus in cash & ended up losing loads to NI payment etc will also now probably suffer in the July pay with your 18 month payment going in. People in my store who are double time have dropped all their sunday overtime until after cut off. Reason - they should get a load of tax back from the bonus in July, but with this payment + overtime they'll get screwed again! & their tax credits will be affected too. This weeks sunday rota looks a bit c**p
With the turn around bonus and the 18 month settlement in July, that will put me over the £11,000 tax threshold. So I will be paying tax on any overtime now and tax on my earnings which I wouldn't off before . I did ask a manager, could we still be paid the same rate over the 18 months rather than have the settlement cushion, as they put it. When our settlement cushion runs out, what money is suppose to fund our bills then. I will be asking the question again, what will happen if we are not happy with the settlement figure and I don't want to accept it. Once we accept the money.it shows we are in agreement.
I've been told today the letters to those affected by the pay cut will start going out tomorrow
Always too little to late, I can see a lot of upheavals over this.
Quote from: claden on 09-06-16, 12:00PM
I've been told today the letters to those affected by the pay cut will start going out tomorrow
will they be sent by post ?
In reply to Sjs28 the union states without the cuts there would be no money for pay increase well why so much of an increase of not to bring it nearer the government target it has to meet by 2020 Tesco state that the 3.1% increase is being met with £137m pay pot (£99m extra and £38m from pay cuts ) so why not a pay increase of around 2.2% this will remove the need for the £38m of paycuts
All letters going to store I think
At the risk of repeating myself and of upsetting you all, if the company changed its mind (extremely unlikely if not impossible) and reduced to payrise to 2.2% so you didn't have your overtime/Sunday/BH rates cut, you are asking for the 85% to take a lower payrise so that you can keep your enhanced terms? Am I right? ???
I would say your wrong, they are simply asking that their overtime/Sunday/BH rates be left as per contract agreement, what happens to pay rises is out of their hands and is between the company and the body it negotiates with tells what it's going to do.
Quote from: AlexM on 09-06-16, 08:35AM
Those of you who got their turnaround bonus in cash & ended up losing loads to NI payment etc will also now probably suffer in the July pay with your 18 month payment going in. People in my store who are double time have dropped all their sunday overtime until after cut off. Reason - they should get a load of tax back from the bonus in July, but with this payment + overtime they'll get screwed again! & their tax credits will be affected too. This weeks sunday rota looks a bit c**p
Unless colleagues who normally pay no tax were temporarily put over the lower tax threshold with the bonus they won't get any tax back any more than they get tax back on overtime pay.
I was told that meetings are to be held next week and to take arep in with you also they have advised we take in wage slips from jan2015 to Dec 2015 ,I get mine on line but it only goes back to June last year any ideas on how to get the rest off.
Quote from: the-vortex on 09-06-16, 02:35PM
At the risk of repeating myself and of upsetting you all, if the company changed its mind (extremely unlikely if not impossible) and reduced to payrise to 2.2% so you didn't have your overtime/Sunday/BH rates cut, you are asking for the 85% to take a lower payrise so that you can keep your enhanced terms? Am I right? ???
As Nomad has suggested there shouldn't be an expectation of others, this was part of the problem in the first instance.
No group should have the power of expectation over another where suffering to the detriment is being dicussed or decided especially where the expectation is a considerable loss.
What that means as a generalised "deal" is the company's concern.
Where you are suggesting the unethical expectation that 85% get a lower payrise it is unjust and lacks any credibility in that context "ethical reasoning", simply because the difference in % award that the 85% won't get is funded by what the 15% won't get.
What you imply is erroneous.
Your implied unethical suggestion is facilitated by one before it.
To have a concern on ethical grounds you cannot concede to the primary unethical decision which concieves your secondary ethical concern.
Also something that you seem to be unable to understand is.
Your secondary ethical concern is about a discretionary award that you have NO RIGHT to.
The Primary ethical concern is about a contractual RIGHT.
A discretionary award should never have been discussed in a deal with the removal of a contractual Right. That is the real ethical concern
Contractual rights should NEVER fund discretionary awards.
You could have achieved a higher award with no loss of contractual rights.
There are staff concerned about the TB and the implication it may have on tax and tax credits.
So having sacrificing some of the TB down to 3 - 3.5% and putting it on the rate would/could have given you a 5 - 5.7% pay increase.
Distribution agreed 2% TB and 3.6% pay award. No loss of premiums for pre 99 staff.
The key thing is what we bargained with was not a contractual right, it was a discretionary award which at the time was very uncertain, yet it was excepted and we have still recieved similar if not better than what was achieved in previous years with a straight forward pay award and sis award. With NO contractual loss.
Quote from: Hammer10 on 09-06-16, 04:21PM
I was told that meetings are to be held next week and to take arep in with you also they have advised we take in wage slips from jan2015 to Dec 2015 ,I get mine on line but it only goes back to June last year any ideas on how to get the rest off.
why on earth would we need to take our wage slips in ? Seems really odd and I doubt many people will have them ?
Because its expected that your payment will be less than you expect. Ensure its recorded at your 121 that you dispute the payment. Ask to see detailed workings if its less than you expect.
Quote from: Rad on 09-06-16, 05:36PM
Because its expected that your payment will be less than you expect. Ensure its recorded at your 121 that you dispute the payment. Ask to see detailed workings if its less than you expect.
why would it be less than expected ? To be honest it should be straight forward maths but they seem to be just complicating it to confuse us ! . I've managed to find all but two wage slips ! Felling stressed :(
I don't see any reason why you would need your wage slips they have all the info on the payroll as it's based on what you took home. I'd ask for a detailed break down and explanation just to make them earn their money.
Colleague letters are arriving instore Thursday for those affected.
The management team have 3 weeks to do the 121's with those colleagues.
On a side note, managers get there pay brief on June 27th.
27th of june will be another kick in the teeth one way or another. If its similar to Ga's then then managers would be unhappy but general workforce would feel at least everyone in the same boat. If its a decent one managers happy but general workforce fuming.
its nothing like GA payrise we were told that on conference call. They are also announcing other changes to managers pay that day aswell ( managers who get double time losing that is a dead cert which is good especially as us in Express only get single time so all managers should be that for sundays. New benefits being released In July.
"managers who get double time losing that is a dead cert which is good especially as us in Express only get single time so all managers should be that for Sundays"
If I have interpreted this correctly, why would you begrudge some people getting what they agreed to in their contract ?
You get what you agreed to, do you not ?
...and, if a 'migrant' worker after six months employment objected to his or her colleagues rights, privileges etc would anyone pay a blind bit of notice?
Most likely not in many cases I dare to postulate.
The working class tend to be their own worst enemy.
Quote from: Nomad on 10-06-16, 07:41PM
"managers who get double time losing that is a dead cert which is good especially as us in Express only get single time so all managers should be that for Sundays"
If I have interpreted this correctly, why would you begrudge some people getting what they agreed to in their contract ?
You get what you agreed to, do you not ?
not begrudging but I think its wrong that it depends on format if a manager gets a sunday premium or not.It should be either all get premiums or not.If they moved to express they would not get it and if we moved to large stores then we would get it. Explain the fairness.
Our GPM & SD have assured all SM's in our group that Team & Lead Managers T & C's are remaining the same for the next year. Then a major review of their pay scales etc will be implemented. Plus customer assistants have had 5 months notice of their loss of double time etc. Could they legally give managers just 1 weeks notice???
Though given the need to know culture in Tesco at the minute you just don't know what to believe. The so called aspirational moves were leaked on here at least 2 weeks before SM's and PM's were briefed.
As for managers getting double time,it shouldn't matter which format your in if it was in your contract because of when you started with the company I can't see why someone should be pleased we loose it
[gmod] Please do not quote the last post in a thread.[/gmod]
cos why should managers keep it when long serving GAs are losing it ?
I don't understand why those of us who have lost out should wish the same unhappiness on others. It's not as if we would get any benefit from this 'fairness' - nor should we put in such a dog-eat-dog position like with the GA pay rise/double time trade off whereby some can only get an OK pay rise if other colleagues lose out. It smacks of a divide and rule policy at the top. With the government's NLW policy about to drive up GA rates, USDAW negotiating away other benefits to pay for it may become a common theme in the next few years.
Has anyone had a letter yet??? Be interesting to see if anyone gets shortchanged!!!
Still not been told anything now on holiday thanks for nothing twatco.
With only 20 days till the rates of pay change thats proper poo!!! Maybe theyll ring you on your hols lol as you say though tosco useless as usual!!!
Hi everyone. just wondering if anyone can help. If you have worked Sunday overtime for a good few years but chose to take it as overtime and never been contracted, do you also get the buyout, or is it only the contracted members of staff who get it?😃
Yep you get it too!!!
i'm still pretty new... my last pay check was much more than I expected.... is there something that would cause this or was I overpaid? I never seem to catch the lady in the office who deals with pay etc because I start late and I have asked my line manager for pay slips for my last 2 pays for a while now and he always forgets....
Quote from: LiveMyLife on 11-06-16, 09:33PM
i'm still pretty new... my last pay check was much more than I expected.... is there something that would cause this or was I overpaid? I never seem to catch the lady in the office who deals with pay etc because I start late and I have asked my line manager for pay slips for my last 2 pays for a while now and he always forgets....
Your turnaround bonus?
Quote from: claden on 11-06-16, 10:31PM
Quote from: LiveMyLife on 11-06-16, 09:33PM
i'm still pretty new... my last pay check was much more than I expected.... is there something that would cause this or was I overpaid? I never seem to catch the lady in the office who deals with pay etc because I start late and I have asked my line manager for pay slips for my last 2 pays for a while now and he always forgets....
Your turnaround bonus?
I've only been working for Tesco for like 2-3 months, I don't think I would be entitled to the bonus would I?
I'll see if I can get my payslips sorted on Monday....
Did you pay emergency tax on your first or first couple of pays. If so then you will have been credited that back.
Quote from: Expressdude2016 on 11-06-16, 10:43PM
Did you pay emergency tax on your first or first couple of pays. If so then you will have been credited that back.
It could be actually, I guess I will find out once I finally get my damn payslips haha.
my store is useless for this stuff ;/
when you do get your latest payslip sign up for it online that way you know you will always get it. www.payslipview.com (http://www.payslipview.com) ( you need your latest payslip though as theres a 4 digit code you need printed on it for you to set up online.
I have calculated my loss of earnings ready to take in with me and my union rep. I am a contracted Sunday double timer, but also worked nearly all bank holidays and lots of days of at time and half which is also being cut!
I am assuming the pay out will take all the extra hours worked on double and time and half in to account.........I will pipit up a fight! It was their own leaflet that said it was based on earnings from jan 2015-dec 2015!
You have just posted the thing on our Usdaw site please be careful you have just identified yourself......
What's the idea of the one to one? They'll have made a decision so what's the point. Will we have to sign something to say we'll accept the change in our conditions ?
No you don't sign anything at 1-1. Its basically prepared brief with individual letter for you confirming X amount. Everyone will receive new terms and conditions to sign in July.
What happens if we don't sign?
Then if you continue to work, it's seen as you have automatically accepted the new terms!
now as the partnership has taken away the right to strike, your only other option is to go off sick in protest, but you will just be managed out the business through either SYA or misconduct depending on the reason you give!
Nothing as the pay deal was agreed via partnership agreement then its automatic agreed you have accepted the new terms and conditions of employment.
Thanks that's what I feared. People will get such a shock when they get their letters. They will be going nuts but they've left it too late now with their innertia.
From what I've heard the average 4 wkly lose is going to be around £30.
Now obviously there are going to be colleagues at the far end of the scale losing a lot more.
I know 4 people who will be losing £100+ after including the pay increase. Some people haven't even attempted to work it out.
I will be losing £120 a month. But I am still fighting it, there hasn't been a decision yet on what is happening in Ireland with resent negotiations. There are other ways of being heard without striking. Imagine hundreds of back to work interviews throughout the Tesco stores on the same weekend.
SJS8 although you may be still fighting it your efforts will come to nothing. The board will not change there mind and even if you refuse to sign new terms and conditions you are bound by them due to the collective partnership agreement. Uk and Ireland differ in the way they operate, I don't think they work using partnership and its obvious there union is a union unlike USDAW who aren't even talk just yes men
For Crying out loud:
it's Their not There'
AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Their socks
There are their socks
They're wearing their socks
Great to see constructive criticism over something that no one else gives a s**t about.
Quote from: OpShunned on 12-06-16, 09:38PM
For Crying out loud:
Their socks
There are their socks
They're wearing their socks
How about, They're over there wearing their socks?
Apparently the night lead in my store told other colleagues that the meetings would take place in July?
Well as Nights seem to do what they want when they want that does not surprise me in the slightest!
But letters will start to arrive from Thursday and then managers have 3 weeks to complete all meetings!
Quote from: Morris999 on 13-06-16, 12:06AM
Well as Nights seem to do what they want when they want that does not surprise me in the slightest!
But letters will start to arrive from Thursday and then managers have 3 weeks to complete all meetings!
I thought the letters were posted out on Friday? That's what my pm told me?
Letters arrive instore on Thursday, via backdoor! Maybe your PM wants the day to find them and go through them first!
Shove them up their backdoor. 😡😡😡
Quote from: Morris999 on 13-06-16, 07:10AM
Letters arrive instore on Thursday, via backdoor! Maybe your PM wants the day to find them and go through them first!
Why are they going to the store? She told me they were being sent to people's home addresses? What the hell is going on, they are showing exactly how much they really don't give a s***.
It's all a major duck up. The restructure, the new pay deal, everything.
Apparently my PM is on holiday this week according to her email reply.
Hi Claden they have a 3 week window to do briefs they don't have to start them this week I'm afraid.What they have said is Team Mangers can do the 1-1s but if its a large amount a person is losing then PM or Sm should do those 1-1s.
Express dude 2016 thanks for the reply do you know if letters are being sent to home addresses?
I am losing €160 a month before tax etc have just been told today our 1 to 1s start thursday but managers pay review is embargoed for 2 more weeks so why is this thoughts would be appreciated
no claden, there going to store.
Bluelucy there's nothing untoward with mangers pay not being announced. Its normally within last 2 weeks of June. I'm led to believe now there is no changes to premiums for managers and green performers are getting around 1.5 and 1% for amber. Reason it's left so late is because every manager gets individual letter as everyone is on different salaries. You may ask why the double time stays, I'm not sure but across the board the % of managers who get this is relatively low and in convenience managers don't get premiums anyway.
Claden, they are definitely going to store!
They will arrive via backdoor addressed to store manager NOT personal manager!
So anyone with the PM on holiday is not an issue, if your SM is on holiday then your PM or LD will pick it up!
Yes the managers do not have to start doing the 121's straight away but they have 3 weeks to complete them!
The brief is that all colleagues who are in next week are seen!
As for managers pay brief, they are completing it on normal time frames!
Hence the brief for them on the 27th June!
What you all have to remember is that the colleagues were briefed very early on there's! They are normally being briefed now and then managers 2 weeks after due to them having a personal letter based on their end of year review!
As for what they are getting its still rumours!
Now if I was a double time team manager and I found out in the pay review that I was keeping double time while colleagues were losing there's I'd be very embarrassed, and would be keeping a low profile!
As far as I'm concerned if one set of employees are losing it then all should regardless of level!
Also they will be announcing the new range of benefits which have been decided upon after there year long review in mid July.Not heard anything though about what they are going to be.
Opshunned
Their their now... aaahhh...... their their ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
New benefits range??? Discount - gone, booklets - gone, Staff canteen - gone, free tea/coffee - gone.
Wouldn't surprise me if they new benefit was sod all.
Free air may be on the list.
....oh sorry, air is free, it is 'tesco air' that isn't.
So to correct the above,
Free 'Tesco air' may be on the list. :thumbup:
New benefit just release you pay us to for a job if you give us a nice wedge you get a job lol.
Yeah, been waiting for tesco to claim ownership of 'air'. Just like they claim ownership of 'time'.
sorry to appear thick but can someone please clarify are managers and senior team going to keep their sunday double time? or have I read some of the previous posts wrong.
bugsbunny not announced until 27th but strong rumour they will be keeping it at least for now and wage increase is going to be minor.
Wow how unfair is that! I am going to be losinf £130 a month so like many people I am not getting a pay rise. I know you say this is a rumour but why do you believe this to be the case? so does this also mean senior team will keep their double time? I just find this unbelievable.
Bugsbunny
I agree with you its a disgrace. Talk about sending mixed messages to the workforce.
Cant really say on here but I have never doubted the person whos said it with previous info. If you think about it they gave everyone else notice of the change and the 1-1 briefing on affected staff . If managers were losing this then notice would be given as well and 1-1 with affected managers. Given managers pay award brief is 27th June then that would not be possible if premiums were being removed.
If it does come out they are keeping it there will be riots.
No there won't people will shrug their shoulders and say 'nothing we can do about it' and just get on with being shafted.
The main issue is how they get the figures...I fear because its Jan to dec they will use all income as a base, which I will argue against as not my base...the year figure includes any OT and shares cashed remember, but to be honest its all in the sky as the union reps won't get briefed how to work it out
All basic wage , overtime , premiums,supplements are included. One off payments such as Team Leader lump sum, selling shares,pension refunds are not.
Thanks Expessdude totally agree with you. Hammer10 what can we do. Duracell can you help us please?
be interesting then...Im basing mine on my lowest pay ie no OT so we see what they quote and if more...I know nuffin???
bugsbunny
have you signed the two petitions?
yes I have
the only thing I can suggest is that you spread the word, because at the moment unless you can think of something, these petitions are the only way to change anything, and we need mass participation.
And unfortunately I do not share the faith that HappyHammer has in there being riots.
As I have said earlier, if these people can't simply click a couple of buttons on a petition a risk free form of protest that they can see that others already support, then I fear that riots are not going to happen, there are just going be people walking around with their eyes wide open gazing into the headlights of reality, and wondering how it all happened, and who could have let it get this far?
I am sure there will be times that those people will huff and puff to me and others about how hard done by they are, and I am sorry but at that time I and people like me will just look at them and shrug with just a hint of an incredulous smile.
Just a partial recap
Pensions have been hit twice
team leaders have lost their jobs
how many years without a pay rise
Unpaid pension funds
Management restructures
accounting scandals
Share price dives (so many losing half of the life savings they expected to have)
Massive payouts to the top few
still increasing union fees
still increasing pay for Usdaw officials
Sunday premioum cuts
(sounds like a peter gabriel song)
and this is just the past couple of years.
But guess what, NO RIOT.
So unlike the well known song
I do not predict a riot, Rant over, for now :thumbup:
With regard to our 'Doom and Gloom' letters, which are apparently being delivered to our stores on Thursday , I wondered if anyone knows if I will be able to go in and collect it as i am on holiday for a fortnight. I really would like to know if my calculation of £120+ loss per month is correct before I go away. I presume as my name will be on said correspondence then I should be able to take it home with a box of value tissues. :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Optout ,even in distribution,where we still have a vote ,most of what you list has impacted us as well . Perhaps ,if you want a stronger response to the petition ,you should focus on the main points that being in the partnership deprives the stores workers from.
Quote from: The hooch on 14-06-16, 10:01AM
With regard to our 'Doom and Gloom' letters, which are apparently being delivered to our stores on Thursday , I wondered if anyone knows if I will be able to go in and collect it as i am on holiday for a fortnight. I really would like to know if my calculation of £120+ loss per month is correct before I go away. I presume as my name will be on said correspondence then I should be able to take it home with a box of value tissues. :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Call the PM, ask to get your 121 over the phone. They will know whats in the letter. It'll just be a number, no workings or anything. Then go collect it. If you disagree with the figure, give your payslips to the PM. The people running this project will be on to something else rapid. So id guess after 3 weeks there will be no way of seeing the workings or getting an explanation.
Thanks for your help ....I will phone on Thursday and try to speak with personnel ( although I've been led to believe shes out all week at meetings )
I will try for a 121 on phone ...I didn't know that could be done. Useful to know as someone in my store is very poorly at the moment and is therefore off sick. So I guess a telephone 121 is the way to go. Plus one can always hang up if one gets angry or upset....better than weeping in the office and making a complete t*t of oneself. >:(
After a week I've just received an email from Usdaw. Letters arrive into store on Thursday they will be distributed on Monday. One to ones will take place after that. If you read your individual 'booklet' and don't want a one to one you don't have to have one. Then table talkers and posters will be put up around the staff areas to remind people who haven't had a pay cut that they are getting a pay rise. Nice rub it in why don't you wankers
So there's no point in me trying to get my "letter" on Thursday if they are not being given out until Monday. I presumed they would be a little more personal than a booklet to be honest . Do we know if if will be like our yearly booklet with a breakdown of how we are being scr*wed over. I'm going away on Tuesday so chances are I'm not going to know before I go 8)
It is a personal booklet no idea what it will say.
Quote from: grrrr on 11-06-16, 11:28PM
I have calculated my loss of earnings ready to take in with me and my union rep. I am a contracted Sunday double timer, but also worked nearly all bank holidays and lots of days of at time and half which is also being cut!
I am assuming the pay out will take all the extra hours worked on double and time and half in to account.........I will pipit up a fight! It was their own leaflet that said it was based on earnings from jan 2015-dec 2015!
can you tell me how you worked out your calculation please
Quote from: bugsbunny on 13-06-16, 07:06PM
sorry to appear thick but can someone please clarify are managers and senior team going to keep their sunday double time? or have I read some of the previous posts wrong.
You don't appear thick, I thought managers were salaried paid staff and Salaried paid staff weren't paid premiums.
They were when I was a manager.
If they are not contracted on sundays. They get paid overtime at whatever rate they get. sundays are different apparently.
Quote from: bugsbunny on 13-06-16, 08:15PM
Thanks Expessdude totally agree with you. Hammer10 what can we do. Duracell can you help us please?
I am not sure I understand what I can help with?
I work in Distribution which very often is pointed out to me is vastly different.
Do I think there is still potential to challenge the PRP decision to accept this deal yes, but I'm not going over old discussions.
With regards to the comparative with managers keeping their premiums, please see my previous post.
U.K. Distributions pre 99 premiums at present are not under threat either. The reasons given to address retails premiums is not credible within Distributions.
I know it's not fair, however without you being able to accept or reject change you have little hope of ever getting to negotiate as a majority.
You seriously have some how some way lobby to get you vote back.
It absolutely laughable that USDAW are advocating you vote and how to Vote in the EU and yet you can't get to vote on your own contract change.
The EU a "The Parnership agreement" on a Grand Scale.
The similarity in the inability to resist is quite uncanny.
Perhaps a comparative to address it in that kind of context to USDAW.
You (USDAW) advocate us having a say and what to say in a referendum, so we want the retail members want one, to get back the choice to agree or disagree by democratic vote.
I'm sorry to the mods and site owner if this goes slightly off topic but I don't want to start another topic just to express a simple point.
The EU raised concerns so a referendum was agreed USDAW and its hierarchy support it and want you to have your say ( albeit they are trying to steer you on what to say).
The pay deal and and PRP set up has also raised serious concerns about the losses to 39,000 staff so say 15%, which like the EU debate the figures and calculations look questionable.
In my opinion given the concerns you at least have a right to call a referendum on reclaiming your right to have a democratic say considering that the PRP has been shown in this deal and is likely to in future deals have seriously damaging consequences for individuals that those individuals should have at least a democratic say in.
Going back to your point about The management deal, represented by Sata in a different PRP, like distributions a different set up with different boundaries so a comparative between you and them is unrealistic.
The pension change facilitates difference in award for Management, the privelage card facilitates different awards and terms.
The company is rife with inequality of benefit for different levels of staff.
The problem retail has is there is inequality within a bargaining group however a decision based in favour of the majority is only credible if the a majority Has made the decision. That hasn't happened.
Recognising a group as a majority and that something is in favour of that majority is NOT a majority decision.
Seriously if such an approach was adopted in distribution you wouldn't have any stock on the shelves.
The assumption would not be made that because something benefits a majority then it's acceptable, the majority would have to decide so, especially where a minority don't gain they lose.
Your set up has to be changed in my opinion The sooner the better. The level of negative effect for the 39,000 is enough reason to call for a review.
If I was one of the 39,000 I would be on it like s*** on a stick, I just would not accept it without at least a democratic say.
Quote from: bugsbunny on 14-06-16, 02:09PM
If they are not contracted on sundays. They get paid overtime at whatever rate they get. sundays are different apparently.
This is quite interesting, if you are Salaried how is your rate realised to pay you the premiums?
Would it be a calculation of contracted hours by your salaried amount? Essentially a P60 hourly rate.
So inherently if done like that your gross pay would increase every year without the need for a pay award if you work extra hours.
Or are you saying Managers in retail are not Salary paid staff?
Also aren't management levels salary banded and each level move from band to Band dependant on performance RAG.
Do management have the same union as General Assistants?
SATA is USDAW's representative side for management.
So yes and no. Same overall organisation but a definitively separate group within the organisation.
http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15355.msg175188;topicseen#new (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15355.msg175188;topicseen#new)
Opportunity to ask some relative questions and voice some relevant concerns? Maybe?
Quote from: Duracell on 14-06-16, 03:28PM
Quote from: bugsbunny on 14-06-16, 02:09PM
If they are not contracted on sundays. They get paid overtime at whatever rate they get. sundays are different apparently.
This is quite interesting, if you are Salaried how is your rate realised to pay you the premiums?
Would it be a calculation of contracted hours by your salaried amount? Essentially a P60 hourly rate.
So inherently if done like that your gross pay would increase every year without the need for a pay award if you work extra hours.
Or are you saying Managers in retail are not Salary paid staff
All work levels ( well up to 3 defo managers have hourly rate on there payslips. Although says salaried for managers it could be debated hourly paid instead . I'm in Express and we don't get any premiums night nor Sunday's. I have colleagues in large stores who get dbl time for Sunday's but if they work a Sunday they have to work 6 days that week to get it.so basically single time not sure if this is norm or not across the country
Quote from: Duracell on 14-06-16, 05:14PM
SATA is USDAW's representative side for management.
So yes and no. Same overall organisation but a definitively separate group within the organisation.
Even though some of us have represented senior team.
It's a joke really.
Quote from: Loki on 14-06-16, 06:22PM
Quote from: Duracell on 14-06-16, 05:14PM
SATA is USDAW's representative side for management.
So yes and no. Same overall organisation but a definitively separate group within the organisation.
Even though some of us have represented senior team.
It's a joke really.
Overall to achieve a different bargaining group, representation on the other hand as recently pointed out and confirmed is an ability to anyone who qualifies even non employees.
I understand your point though.
Collective bargaining and representation are rightly applied differently.
I made an attempt at being humorous.
Even your attempts at that are tired and exhausted.
You have my sympathy.
I wish I could give you more than that.
Who knows one day! Maybe.
Stranger things have happened I have fancied a change for a long time.
Also Hummus thing is a waste of time not really what it should be rather like your pay deal ironicly . ;)
I wonder if tls affected who take the redundancy option next week at the end of the 45 day period will get any sort of payout lol the thing is they would have to have been sent a letter as the 45 day period doesnt end till next friday so should be interesting to see what happens!!! Maybe get a couple of weeks back as a leaving gift lol
Quote from: Duracell on 14-06-16, 07:32PM
Also Hummus thing is a waste of time not really what it should be rather like your pay deal ironicly . ;)
I've reached the point where I no longer give a s*** about both the Company and the Union my friend.
F**k 'em.
More important things in my life to worry about and prioritise to be honest.
I figured that out, it's humour I have trouble realising.
If I'm honest I seem myself the same in 12 to 18 months time.
The Company have concealed much in their era of transparancy whilst the Union have earned themselves countless white feathers.
It's sickening actually and fills me with bile every time.
If affected, chances are I'll take the money and p**s off elsewhere.
Out of interest Duracell, what's with your signature quote? Only just noticed it.
Surely not having a dig at reps? ;D ;D ;D
Not a dig or at anyone in particular, having said that it is a point of credible observation that can often be proven therefore quite factual.
I won't bore you with the detail.
90+ getting letters on my night team. Night manager seems shocked >:(
Had my sealed letter and one to one today. My figure was what i was expecting it to be.
Thought it wasn't till Monday that letters are given out
Officially I think yes, however a lot of store managers will understand the impact, so will not want to sit on the letters knowing staff know they have got them, especially with 'what matters to you' in afew weeks time!
That's gonna be great another crappy survey no blackmail this time as there is not bonus on the line this time just say it as it is xxxx.
I was informed by my manager they would be in on Thursday and given to us as soon as possible. But went work today and they had arrived so I had my letter and one to one.
I haven't had time to have a good read thro but the figure seems correct.
[gmod]Please do not quote immediately prior post(s).[/gmod]
may I ask are you a double timer, and how had you worked out your personal calculations??
Hourly rate 4 weeks on old rate x 12 months then same on new rate x 12 months. Then the shortfall x 18mnts..
Now the leaflet states the payment is made up of
Basic pay, Sunday premium, bank holiday premium, overtime premium, night premium and location pay.
I only calculated mine on Sunday premium and got the figure they have stated! I didn't included any bank holidays or overtime. But that means I will have to look thro the relevant pay slips to check.
Hot chick if you worked any over time that is included in the calculations. Have you had a 1 to 1? Ask for a full break down.
Just a thought! I have just been given my letter and I realised that no managers were receiving the same. This means, in my opinion, that managers will NOT be losing their premiums as stated!
Another stab in the back >:( >:( >:(
This pay review doesn't include managers theirs is separate.
Quote from: Daftjoe on 16-06-16, 07:59PM
Just a thought! I have just been given my letter and I realised that no managers were receiving the same. This means, in my opinion, that managers will NOT be losing their premiums as stated!
Another stab in the back >:( >:( >:(
Managers have not had there pay review yet. What you need to remember Managers pay review is negotiated separate to hourly paid colleagues as although its USDAW its another part of there union called SATA which negotiates theirs . Same rules apply for distribution who at there negotiations kept there double time. Another thing to remember with managers is only a small % get double time or time and half and many don't get premiums for working sundays as there are different contracts managers are on and managers all get different pay increases as there on performance based salaries. Lastly managers are not going to be getting increases anywhere near the rate colleagues are getting so by 2020 with living wage at £9 the gulf between colleagues and many mangers will not be that great.
Expressdude , have you heared of any other staff in express Whoes figure for payout is way out, example I worked 40 Sunday's from Jan 15 to Dec 15 @ double time, also worked 6 Bh , and get np1 and np2 for opening and closing store 3 lates 2 Earlys a week. Had my letter today and my payment was £80 . In loosing £26 every Sunday I work under new pay deal. And same every bank holiday I work. Has something happened within express , seems they have just calculated the loss of np1 and np2 and not added any Sunday's or Bh in their calculation.
Diesel.pi have you worked out what you think it should be? In your 1 to 1 bring your own figures and question it.
Hi Diesel.pi sorry no I would be escalating that though.You speak to your APM. I don't think you would get anything for the NP2 as its still technically there. Its just not paid if your starting times 530am as you need to start at 5am to get that paid. But you should get it for the NP1 and loss of double time.
Yes did speak to sm , who hadn't a clue how they came to £80 , that's just over 3 bank holidays loss of pay, never mind the 40 Sunday's and bank holidays plus it's 18 months of loss of pay. Have now thrown it to pm, I'll add Matt Davies to the list as he was the one who sent letter saying £80
Diesel.pi have you worked it out yourself? The proper figures I mean not an estimate? Do this then go armed with the figure you were expecting.
I'm gonna ask for a breakdown even thought I'm confident mine is correct give or take a pound or two.
@hot_chick, is the amount that you've been given the amount before tax ?
Even M&S are cutting back on enhanced pay rates for overtime & weekends!
Quote from: spooner on 17-06-16, 12:22AM
@hot_chick, is the amount that you've been given the amount before tax ?
Yes
Question I am contracted for Sundays I've spoken to management about opting out of Sundays been informed that once i opt out i will no longer be able to do any Sunday work in the future overtime etc ,however if i simply give up my Sunday hours i will still be able to do overtime when it suits what are the full implications of both i am also led to believe that i will still receive the payout whatever route i decide to take any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Anything so they can get another on part time hours .How can you get loyalty from people working part time this company is going down the pan.
You can opt back in to sunday working any time in the future, It is usually (i think) after a notice period (the same as opting out).
When you opt back in, that doesn't mean that you get your sunday hours back though.
And when you opt out they are under no real obligation to replace the sunday hours that you have lost, although under the partnership agreement they should try to replace them it is unlikely that they will and will usually (as a form of revenge) neglect to try and indeed even try to hinder such efforts.
[admin]A few posts have been deleted due to a members concern over being identified by management, although no company rules/policies had been breached. Administrators will always consider such requests but may not always be able to comply due to number of replies posted by other members. [/admin]
A quick question for someone I am repping for. They are contracted to sundays - 6.5 hours. We have worked out that every month they should get £99.06 in sunday prem (6.5x0.5x7.621x4=99.06). But, every month they only seem to get between £84-£89 a month. He is thinking of putting in a grievance as he seems to be £15 down every month which is equal to 2 hours pay.
We have accounted for holiday flexes etc but he still always seems to be down. Can we challenge this or is there something we don't know about that affects payment of sunday premiums?
First it would help to know his shift pattern
Does he work nights where his shift starts on a Saturday or finish on a Monday?
The other possibility is that is his contracted hours 6.5 or is he at work for 6.5 hours?
If it's he's at work for 6.5 then you have to take the break out 30 mins!
Both would account for the 2 hours missing each month!
If neither apply then you really need to see what shift pattern he is down for on the wages system compared to his contract hours to see where the issue is coming from
He works 9-5, it is his short day from 36.5 hours a week full time.
If he has any holiday days in a month, then his Sunday premium will be reduced even if he did not have any Sundays as holiday. That is because the daily rate for holidays is calculated to include Sunday premium. So, in any month, the total of basic pay + sun prems + holiday pay should come to the same total as a month that has only basic pay + sun prems.
Also, the £7.62 rate has only just started in July. Before that it was £7.39, which I make to be £96.07 per month for Sunday premium.
Speak to his manager and ask them to explain why he is being paid that amount.
Give the manager photocopies of several past payslips, as many as he wants to claim for. Also give them a written description of what the problem is and what he believes needs to be done about it. You could include a query as to what shift pattern is on the wages system for his Sundays, as Morris999 says.
If they can't give you a sensible explanation for the amount being paid and/or can't correct the problem he should put in a grievance.
We've spoken to his manager today who is going to have a look at it. Noted what you say Tumshie, but this month he had 3 days hols (mon-weds) and he regularly works an extra 5 hours overtime every week & every bank hol. Yet his gross wage (before this months overtime is added on) was only £10 more than just his basic + sun prem would be. He was expecting to get a bit more than £10 on his hol pay for his overtime average from the past 12 weeks. We're sure he should be getting more.
Between now & next pay he has no holidays booked, so we're going to see what he gets for his sun prem then. Hopefully, working the bank hol won't affect anything. If he gets the £99.06 then we know it's right, if not then we'll have to take it further.
For the holiday pay one if he works extra 5 hrs each week then because he works 5 days and took 3 days holiday the average would be around 3 hrs he would get then take off tax and ni and if in pension then that would take the net amount down. He may also have taken more holidays during last 12 weeks where he may not have worked any overtime that week.
Quote from: AlexM on 25-08-16, 10:31AM... every month they only seem to get between £84-£89 a month. He is thinking of putting in a grievance as he seems to be £15 down every month which is equal to 2 hours pay.
Probably a silly question but have you checked what hours he's being credited with for the Sunday premium? By your calculation it should be 26 hours if it isn't then there ought to be an explanation. If it's showing 24 hours or less then, before starting any official process, ask to see a few months worth of clocking sheets (may be called exceptions reports) which
may show he's leaving early for example.
We have asked his manager to check what he is down for on the staff registers on a sunday. Although, his manager is useless so probably hasn't. I will be visiting his store again soon so will chase up. He clocks in religiously on time for every shift! He has had holidays this summer.
Listening to the radio this morning i had to "pr**k up my ears" when hearing this "Marks and Spencer workers to consider striking over loss of premiums -backed by USDAW" i have looked on line can not see anything anyone out there reps etc know any thing about this.
The difference i believe is Marks have no aggreement in place with usdaw.
All we know is on the USDAW site they have a petition for M &S staff to sign to be the recognised union. Apart from that ,zero.
Marks and Spencer online petition against cuts in pay as reached 80,000 signatures and will be presented to management tomorrow.They want as many people as possible to turn up to present petition.
An MP I emailed about our pay cuts funny when it was Tesco staff being shafted no one gave a s*** now it's M&S everyone is interested.
Even Tesdaw are desperate to get in there - be interesting to see what happens if they do.
Has anyone any idea when the managers letters for loss of double time are coming out. Brief in July said letters out this month with payment in November wages.
My PM can't give me the anewer.
If you're not affected you wont get a letter.
9-5 a short day? Arent short days usually only 8 hours? X
A few affected managers in my store asking the pm today but she hadn't heard of a date yet
Just seen this on Google:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37671752 (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37671752)
Absolutely f****ng fantastic. now maybe the real world will actually get to know about this. And where are usdaw?
They also at the time took away the premium of time and half for any hours worked over 36.5 a
week this affected a lot of full time staff.Good luck to all our colleges who are brave enough
to stand up and fight
This action/subject/article now has its own thread.
http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15561.msg182488#msg182488 (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15561.msg182488#msg182488)
Sorry thanks for putting me right I'm new and still in sure of my way around thanks again
[gmod]Tesco pay dispute thread (http://www.verylittlehelps.com/index.php?topic=15561.msg182488#msg182488)[/gmod]
Can anyone explain why managers are getting a transition payment even though they are already on time and a half for Sunday's and bank holidays and have never qualified for double time?
Some managers would have been on double time because I was once one and Sunday's were paid at double.
Not after September 2000 all colleagues and managers on time and a half for Sunday's and bank holidays
It may be because of other premiums or overtime. Some managers depending on start date had overtime rate if they worked a 6th day which has not gone.
Quote from: Dontbelieveaword on 05-11-16, 08:11PM
Can anyone explain why managers are getting a transition payment even though they are already on time and a half for Sunday's and bank holidays and have never qualified for double time?
Maybe because some of them do get double time Sunday and some of them do work Sunday's so why would they not be?
I understand managers getting a payment if they were on double time and worked Sundays, but if already on time and a half and work Sundays why get a pay off ?.
It could be because the bank holidays will now be time and a half?
How do you know that there getting one? Its meant to be confidential.
Some managers only got £25 to £50 night, managers on 1.5 received around £200 due to night premium 1.
Managers before the cutoff date of employment, (200?), would have got double time for Sunday work the same as anyone else, now reduced to time and half, hence payment in lieu now
All managers in my store got a payment of over £400 some got over £1500, cause the compliance manager was putting the Sunday overtime through as time and a half so all the managers got a payment they didn't even qualify for, where's the justice. They all have less than ten years service it's a joke. Union not interested but If a lowly ga was 'overpaid' they would be asking for it back
I love it managers trying to get staff work Boxing Day and people saying no you know why no double time,greedy bunch of whatnots anyway we should be shut plenty of other days to go shopping.
Who on earth is going to work for 3.75 hours on any Bank Holiday. The other 7.5 hours don't forget is given as a day off. Don't forget when you work a Bank Holiday 7.5 hours is taken off your basic pay, just to confuse ever one and make them think they are getting paid more for working BH.
So how is the pay out going to be worked out when they cut sunday/bh rate to time and a quarter? Will be based on last 12 months? And paid for 18 months like the last time?
For most people the payout will be minimum as the way it is worked out I believe is actual pay last July - this July against this July to July 2019 and as the first increase was in the July 17 to July 18 the loss will be greatly reduced .
Yes they will use increase in basic pay to substitute loss in premiums. So instead of £1k you receive only £500.
Quote from: chris9997 on 22-04-18, 03:00PM
For most people the payout will be minimum as the way it is worked out I believe is actual pay last July - this July against this July to July 2019 and as the first increase was in the July 17 to July 18 the loss will be greatly reduced .
. Can you explain how it's worked out ? Thanks
I can not find the booklet to confirm this but as I believe I read it and I have worked out for myself that I gain less than £200 for the year I will try to explain and someone can correct me if they believe I am wrong.
July pay 2017 to June pay 2018 versus July pay 2018 to June 2019 because there was a pay increase in November 2017 the difference between the two sets of dates will be significantly less.
I have no doubt that after payments are made , we'll still be none the wiser how it was worked out .
When premiums were lost last time , I didn't lose anything but got about £300 pay out. Others lost money and got less , I think I'll just wait and see .
Quote from: lordadmiral on 22-04-18, 07:49PM
Yes they will use increase in basic pay to substitute loss in premiums. So instead of £1k you receive only £500.
They did that in 4 stores in my area, Sunday day shift got nothing. They gave us location pay so the only pay out was to night premium losses not the Sunday double time
The more overtimes you do (BH, Sun) the more you get.
Old pay: 7,62*1.5=11.43; new pay (dec 2018); 8,42*1.25=10.52; curent pay: 8,02*1.5=12.03; will never be: 8,42*1.5=12.63.
Simply saying,tesco will save 2.11 per hour on us by cutting premium.
As chris9997 said payout would be round 200 pound. But if you compare diference 10.52 vs 12.63 its 822.9 pounds (52 sundays, 7,5h each).
Not sure anyone has given a clear "example" of how we "think" it will be calculated. LordAdmiral's post merely compared Sunday pay pre and post the change - Tesco will be using your entire weekly/monthly wage.
Here's my guess - because the original document was not very lucid about the actual arrangements, and despite me questioning various managers (incl the Personnel Mgr) I never did get confirmation on a few points - one of which is "what 12 month period is being compared" - so here goes - if we assume it is July-June:
Example 1: GA works 14 paid hours per week, 7 on a weekday and 7 on a Sunday.
July 17 - June 18: Weekday hours were paid at 7.62 up to Nov 17, and then 8.02 from then. If we average this out, we get 1/3rd @ 7.62 and 2/3 @ 8.02 = average = 7.89, which means Sunday = 1.5*7.89 = 11.84. So average weekly wage = (7*7.89)+(7*11.84) = 138.05
July 18 - June 19: I'm guess from July-Nov, they will base it on 8.18 per hour (we get 16p in July) - and then from Nov we get another 2.5% is it? (Someone please confirm?) - so that would be 8.38. So again, on a 1/3 and 2/3 split, the average for that period is 8.31, so average weekly wage = (7*8.31)+(7*8.31*1.25) = 130.88
Difference in pay = 7.17 worse off - times 18 months (78 weeks) = £559 compensation
However, this is on a relatively uncommon split of 50/50 between normal/Sunday pay.
Taking a more probable example: GA works 21 hours, 14 on weekday and 7 on Sunday. Then the weekly pays are as follows:
So average weekly wage = (14*7.89)+(7*11.84) = 193.34
New "year": (14*8.31)+(7*8.31*1.25) = 189.05
So, on this example, 4.29 worse off per week - so payout would be less -
This assumes I have the Nov 18 payrise of 2.5% correct.......
Barafear
Could you summarise?
To summarise, the higher the proportion that Sunday hours form of your total working week, the more likely you will be to get a compensation payout.
If your Sunday hours form 35% or less of your total working week, your payout will be very minimal if anything at all.
There was a copy of the calculation on the USDAW at Tesco Facebook page which I read Tesco is using to work out the payout. We were also told only 3% would get anything.
Yes, 3% would be "worse off" and hence get the compo payment.
But what % of people would get the "full effect of the much lauded 10.5% pay rise"?
Certainly no-one that works any Sundays or BHs!!
That's the most disappointing aspect of all this - if you're a Sunday worker, chances are you won't get any compo and overall your weekly pay might increase by 3% over two years (compared to 10.5% for any non-sunday workers).
However, Tesco have enough teenagers fresh out of school to call on to work Sundays - so don't think it'll cause them much of an issue - until those teenagers start drinking and have hangovers every Sunday!!
Somewhat generalising here.....
It's 3% in November . I do 50% of my hours on a Sunday. 7.5 paid hours on a Sunday and the same on another day in the week.
Tesco employees are lucky they are getting anything a lot of companies have no premiums and expect staff to work for min wage day or night.
It's nothing to do with being lucky or not. It's part of the contract you sign up to. I applied for a job in a pub once - the interview was in November and it was made clear at the interview that all hours were paid at flat rate - and one of the questions I was asked at the interview was whether I would be available to work on Christmas Day, Boxing Day, NYE and NYD. It was one of those questions that you felt if you had answered no you may as well not be applying.....
However, with Tesco or any other companies, if enhancements are removed whilst you're in post and you have a contract, it's effectively a breach of contract - so Tesco and others offer "compensation" -
Anyway - we've all talked about it enough already - let's all look forward to our huge compo packages and plan our summer holidays in Hawaii!!
Hi..Can someone advise in the simplest way as I'm not the sharpest :D
I've applied for a job thats Fri,Sat,Sun nights...10pm-7am. I'm a bit confused with regards to night premium and Sunday premium etc.
Could someone advise how much I would get for each individual shift ?
Thank you so much.
Hi,
Very sorry to hijack a post and sorry if this isn't the done thing but I'm trying to get in touch with the moderators and my messages aren't going through... if a moderator is reading this, please email me on the email I used to create my account!
Thank you
[admin]Email sent[/admin]
Time and a quarter on Sunday and 2.21 an hour extra from midnight until 6 am.
Quote from: AlexM on 14-01-16, 09:23PM
They can't take peoples' entitlement to that away, can they? I thought it was part of terms & conditions & they had to pay it?
Of course they can, just have to give you a 90 day contractual change notice.
Quote from: Hammer10 on 23-10-18, 11:42AMTime and a quarter on Sunday and 2.21 an hour extra from midnight until 6 am.
Hi sorry to jump on this I'm just about to start nights myself on Saturdays and Sundays. So can I just ask if I work Saturday 10pm until 7am Sunday morning I'd get '£8.72 normal pay plus '£2.21 night rate plus time and a quarter past Midnight until 6am?
Night Premiums are static. You would get £8.72 @ time and a quarter then £2.21 night premium per hour on top.
Should have worded that better.
You will get:
£130.80 15.00 hours basic pay.
£ 16.35 Sunday Premium. 7.50 hours- Midnight to 07.00 am Saturday in Sunday and 22.00 to midnight Sunday into Monday
£22.10 Night Premium 4.50 hours each night between Midnight and 06.00 am, plus £2.21 each night for working during full premium window.
The company assumes that all your breaks are taken between Midnight and 06.00 am.
Hi there! I have off Monday / Tuesday, I work on twighlight (4:00 p.m. -00:30 a.m.). I noticed that I am not getting the night premium 00:00 - 00:30. Doing overtime bonuses for half an hour I get. Is it right?
Hello Moneyrice, I've found this on Colleague Help:
It will also include Night Premium at a rate of £2.30 per hour and is payable once 1 hour in the Sunday night premium window has been worked. If the time worked between 00:00 and 06:00 is less than 1 hour (i.e., 15, 30 or 45 minutes), then the 'Sunday Overtime Day (XSUN)' rate should be used.
XSUN: Using this rate will pay or deduct the colleague at 1.25 rate of their normal hourly rate (inclusive of their contractual skills payment).
So, by staying on for 30 minutes, you're getting time and a quarter but no night premium.