verylittlehelps

Hi there. I'm just wondering if anybody can confirm or deny that you are allowed 3 minutes leeway when clocking in and out when working at Tesco. I heard that USDAW had negotiated so you could have 3 minutes to get from your car (or the bus stop) to get to and from the clocking machine. Anybody experienced this at Tesco? Be grateful for any advice. Thanks in advance.

Yes that is correct ,under the old system I don’t know if this is the same under work and pay.

Thanks chris9997. I am new to this forum, so I'm not sure what the old system and 'work and pay' means (sorry if I'm being dumb). I worked at a store in Lancashire (I left in January 2020). I know you may not wish anybody to know what part of the country you are in, but wondered if you would mind saying which County you're in, so that I can prove to an Employment Tribunal that this 3 minute leeway was a national thing, rather than just a Lancashire thing. Or even if you could just confirm whether you are in or outside Lancashire. I know for a fact that most of the store colleagues congregated at the clocking machine and swiped out 3 minutes before their shifts ended, but I wouldn't ask any of them to go on the record as doing so (for fear of retribution from Tesco if they did). Do you think the 3 minute leeway might be documented anywhere? Thanks.

I'd need to recheck the policy to be sure, but as far as I can remember the 3 minutes concept was part of a recurring myth/rumor where if you were late by more than 3 mins you were docked 15 minutes pay.

Though saying that, if the 3 minutes idea was common practice ( in terms of leeway) in your store, you could argue unfairness if others received this leeway and you did not, or were punished and they were not.

The 3 minutes thing is that the HRAM payroll system (the old one) doesn't flag up an exception if you clock either 3 minutes early or 3 minutes late. You are still technically late but it's tolerated by the company. Evidence would be management walking past people waiting to clock out at 57 minutes.

That's the case in 6 separate stores I've worked at in Scotland and I used to do wages. Not too fussed about being identified hahaha.

intresting to see if they try to put a stop to this under the new work and pay system,I know lots of people who leave 3 minutes early everyday and get away with it

I reckon they might.

I was under the impression that the "3 min rule" was more to cut down on exceptions , it was not to say yes it's fine to go home 3 mins early regularly or be 3 mins late regularly.  If your clocking were looked at it would still show that you clocked early/late .  So I think if you're talking tribunals its important to know the difference . Ie; if your usual bus meant that you couldn't clock till 3 minutes past your clock in time , you would be expected to get an earlier bus not consistently clock in 3 minutes late .

Quote from: alf on 14-02-21, 10:12AM
I'd need to recheck the policy to be sure, but as far as I can remember the 3 minutes concept was part of a recurring myth/rumor where if you were late by more than 3 mins you were docked 15 minutes pay.

Though saying that, if the 3 minutes idea was common practice ( in terms of leeway) in your store, you could argue unfairness if others received this leeway and you did not, or were punished and they were not.

The Docking of ANY money for being late is illegal and should not be happening ,under some ruling going back about 60 years

As a wages clerk I have the 'docking' argument for lateness or leaving early at least once a week with management. I used to have the actual ACAS ruling to wave in front of them but I don't need it now as it is in the Lateness Policy which can be found on Colleague Help.

Thank you for your replies on here and also to those who have private messaged me (giving their non specific geographical area) in support. This was just one of about 12 acts of victimisation against me after I had made a whistleblowing disclosure to the lead manager of my department. I am just hoping to prove that the manager who singled me out could not possibly have not been aware of the 3 minute leeway. What actually happened in this case was that I arrived to work my evening shift when I was told (without prior warning) by my supervisor that 'Manager J' (who was not my line manager) wanted to "see me upstairs". When I replied that that sounded ominous, the supervisor said he didn't know what it was about. When I got upstairs, the manager was waiting for me alone in a meeting room and I asked what it was all about. Ironically, he then gave me my two most recent Wows, which I held up while he took my photo. Then he passed me a brown envelope containing a letter informing me the date of my appeal against a written warning (which was another victimisation issue.... which I eventually after much stress and anxiety  :'( got overturned). Then he leaned back and revealed a pre-written Let's Talk form and said, something like,"I need to have a word with you about your timekeeping. You've been late 8 times in the last 12 weeks". I replied that I hadn't been late even once and he then produced printouts on which he had highlighted where I had clocked in at either 1 or 2 minutes later than my official clocking time. He had taken no notice of the times I had clocked out at (which were always to the benefit of Tesco as I didn't do that waiting for the 3 minute thing as I just wanted to get home). This same manager also knew that on an almost daily basis that, upon arriving at the store and parking my car (and before I even clocked in and therefore in my own time), I either brought dollies of trays over from the Click'n'collect pod in the car park or if I was very early, would cover while the pod colleague nipped into the store for a loo break. The main thing is though that he denied all knowledge of a 3 minute leeway (despite him having worked at Tesco for years) and when I challenged him about how many other colleagues from my department (as mentioned, he wasn't even my line manager) he had checked the clocking times of, it turned out that I was the only one. Virtually every colleague in the store actually clocked in and/or out the full 3 minutes before and after on an almost daily basis, yet I was the only one singled out by this manager. The reason I have posed the question on here is because I just wanted to check that the 3 minute thing wasn't something that only happened in the store I worked at as it might have been more difficult to prove that the manager couldn't have not known about it if that was the case. Also, I don't think it would be fair to ask ex-colleagues who I worked with to back me up (because they all still work there). I was hoping to create an anonymous spreadsheet with the column headings "comments", "how long worked at Tesco", "County worked in" (County not Town to protect your anonymity), "3 min leeway Y or N", "date of leaving (or N/A)". I would most certainly not disclose any user-ids or anything that might identify anybody and would only include the comments, length of service, County, Leeway Y or N, DOL if you (good and kind  ;)) forum members who may wish to help were to put YYYYY at the end of their comment (or for example YNNYY if you don't mind me including your comment but don't want your length of service or County included etc). Any help that anybody can give me will be greatly appreciated (and would also be a great boost to my morale as it's pretty scary fighting a £multimillion organisation like Tesco on my own) and I will update on here with the progress of how it's going. Sorry for the essay. Thanks.

Thank you 80377. I don't suppose you'd know where I could get a copy of the ACAS ruling do you? This would be enormously useful as evidence. Would it also be OK for me to say which County you work in and whether or not I can include your comment in an anonymous spreadsheet? Did the 3 minute leeway exist in your store then?

Quote from: 80377494 on 14-02-21, 02:54PM
As a wages clerk I have the 'docking' argument for lateness or leaving early at least once a week with management. I used to have the actual ACAS ruling to wave in front of them but I don't need it now as it is in the Lateness Policy which can be found on Colleague Help.

Have you got citizens advice or union or something in your corner? You don't want to go to tribunal alone.

Quote from: RightsDefender on 14-02-21, 03:02PM
Thank you for your replies on here and also ..............

Your issue appears to be helping others on your way into work ( bringing the dollies from the outside pod relieving members of staff for a toilet break) these are issues that make you late then you really need to stop , toilet break and clearing dollies is a problem that Tesco needs to deal with.

I’ll just add another point to this thread even though it’s not 100% related, if say you start your shift at 9am and just say you work on checkouts-dotcom and your manager insists you be on your till and signed on bang on 9, tell him your shift starts as soon as you set foot on shop floor. I work in dotcom and the amount of arguments I’ve had when they want me in department signed onto gun-scanned labels and out the door at bang on 6am. My response is I start my shift when I hit shop floor as I could be asked something by a customer, I won’t give Tesco free time and I won’t be in shop floor minutes before I start getting paid, they still don’t get it.

These weren't the issues that made me late though. I never was late. The only reason I mentioned these favours to my colleagues was to highlight that the manager who singled me out (and claimed to have no knowledge of the 3 minute leeway) was also aware of my goodwill to these colleagues. The issue is that I was singled out by this manager and now that I know that the 3 minute leeway existed (at that time) at several stores, it will help me prove that he DID single me out (and the fact that he knew of my goodwill made what he did even more unjustifiable). Part of that proof is thanks to your earlier reply, which I am grateful for. I was subjected to a victimisation campaign which resulted in me being forced to leave in January 2020.

Quote from: chris9997 on 14-02-21, 06:19PM

Quote from: RightsDefender on 14-02-21, 03:02PM
Thank you for your replies on here and also ..............

Your issue appears to be helping others on your way into work ( bringing the dollies from the outside pod relieving members of staff for a toilet break) these are issues that make you late then you really need to stop , toilet break and clearing dollies is a problem that Tesco needs to deal with.

Quote from: kaled78 on 14-02-21, 10:49AM
intresting to see if they try to put a stop to this under the new work and pay system,I know lots of people who leave 3 minutes early everyday and get away with it

W&P stores have had to eradicate the 3 minute myth as the new system will flag you as missing & create an exception. The whole point of W&P is to minimise / eradixate exceptions.

Quote from: RightsDefender on 14-02-21, 03:02PM
Thank you for your replies on here and also to those who have private messaged me (giving their non specific geographical area) in support........

Sorry, in my opinion the 3 minute leeway isnt a thing nationwide.  It's to do with cutting down exceptions.  If anything, in every store I've worked at for decades you would get pulled up for leaving 3 minutes early or starting 3 minutes late.

Yeah & I bet you wouldn't get thanked for starting 3 mins early or leaving 3 mins late!!

Standard practice at ours seems to be clock in on time or a bit before, get changed, go out for a fag, come back in, grab a coffee, start work.

Quote from: RightsDefender on 14-02-21, 03:02PM
Thank you for your replies on here and also to those who have private messaged me (giving their non specific geographical area) in support..............

Have you spoken to ACAS ? If they have told you, you have to be on your dept at your clocking in time this is incorrect that is why they have a clocking machine. The 1st Question would be do you have a locker ? the reason I ask this is because you should clock in at say 9 am start time put your personal property in the locker and then go to your dept as they require all staff at ours to use a locker for staff search purposes and when finishing you go to your locker remove personal property and clock out at 6pm. If they are saying different this may have taken you under minimum pay I am in talks with ACAS at the moment about this problem and the more that report it to them the better a case they will have as this relates to recent news of companies under paying staff and from 2017 when they were fined,I would encourage anyone who is being made to work for nothing to contact ACAS tel no is 03001231100. I am in a similar position and from the same county as you and I am also challenging them as I have it in black and white being told to clock in 2 mins before shift and not to leave station until my shift has finished. All they seem to do is lie and then get others to cover up their lies as nothing is straight forward with managers who simply seem to run on fresh air with low IQ's and a lack of self dignity. The Union is supposedly also looking into this but then not heard anything back from them yet. 

Good post Batmanjo.
This one just keeps on coming up!

Had to sit a PM down a few years ago and explain very slowly, in simple two-syllable words that these +3min late deductions were illegal and have been for 140 years.
Result was the affected person got a lot of cash back, going back years with a BIG hint that no one else should be told this 'secret'!!

Also we have had the 'Be at team five meeting at far end of warehouse two mins before the hour of shift start.' (all clocked in and locker visited)
Err..... No - don't think so!
Unfortunately many people sheepishly complied without an argument until they realised the person giving the team five often did not appear till ten-past!
We also had issues using the 'random search' at the back door with people being 15 mins late getting out.

The locker visit before/after clocking is interesting.
Must admit I never thought of locker use as part of work, but you are right Batmanjo, if they want it, they pay for it!!
Also, what would happen if a un-clocked person was trapped by fire in the locker room?
Crocodile tears would be shed by our famous 'Tosco spokesperson' He of the ever growing nose.

'The Union is supposedly also looking into this but then not heard anything back from them yet.  '
Dont hold your breath! They will bend over do as they are told.

Zoe Lagadec, a solicitor at Mulberry’s Employment Law Solicitors, said: “Given that the employees are not free to leave their place of work until and unless the security check has been completed, this time should be considered ‘working time’ and therefore paid in accordance with the national minimum wage provisions.”

Lagadec added that docking 15 minutes of pay for clocking in slightly late is “arguably a breach of the national minimum wage, which carries both criminal and civil sanctions”.

The legal basis of her views was also confirmed to the Guardian by an employment law barrister at one of London’s top legal chambers.

taken from https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/09/how-sports-direct-effectively-pays-below-minimum-wage-pay

Quote from: dirty-donkey on 16-02-21, 11:40AM
Good post Batmanjo.
This one just keeps on coming up!

Had to sit a PM down a few years ago and explain very slowly, in simple two-syllable words that these +3min late deductions were illegal and have been for 140 years.
Result was the affected person got a lot of cash back, going back years with a BIG hint that no one else should be told this 'secret'!!

Also we have had the 'Be at team five meeting at far end of warehouse two mins before the hour of shift start.' (all clocked in and locker visited)
Err..... No - don't think so!
Unfortunately many people sheepishly complied without an argument until they realised the person giving the team five often did not appear till ten-past!
We also had issues using the 'random search' at the back door with people being 15 mins late getting out.

The locker visit before/after clocking is interesting.
Must admit I never thought of locker use as part of work, but you are right Batmanjo, if they want it, they pay for it!!
Also, what would happen if a un-clocked person was trapped by fire in the locker room?
Crocodile tears would be shed by our famous 'Tosco spokesperson' He of the ever growing nose.

'The Union is supposedly also looking into this but then not heard anything back from them yet.  '
Dont hold your breath! They will bend over do as they are told.

I've never thought of this locker situation either. But you aren't allowed bags, phones in the warehouse. So how do you clock in without putting them in your locker first? Also in my DC they added a clock machine in the search room in the last couple of years. You swipe a card if you get searched

I have never seen anything written down that you have a 3 minute window either side of clocking in/out what I have witnessed as a union rep is a baker being threatend with losing his job and issued a final written warning because he was 1 minute late vitually every day.

I would be careful about using the 3 min rule or telling others to do it until you have it confirmed either in writting or on our tesco in the policy part. A lot of these things are myths from yesteryear.

I was under the belief that the 3 minute clocking out early was a law years ago about time to clean up/wash hands after work. I've seen people doing this for years with no hassles, as for late clocking in this wouldnt be under same or any other law to my knowledge.

You can have whatever belief you want however untill you cite an official document saying the same it means nothing.


You really need to get used to having the proof of what you assert to hand even if that means photocopying documents from the internet and having them with you.


its something I do as a matter of course and its got me out of situations a lot of times.

I know someone who clocked out a minute early, and had 15 minutes deducted from her pay. We had all previously been told about the three minute leeway, but maybe it's just discretionary

Lateness cannot be deducted.
It is a disciplinary matter.
You should clock in to give you time to get to your department at start of shift.
Clock off when coming from your department.
So should clock in up to 3 minutes before and out up to 3 minutes after your shift,

rubbish. clock in start of shift time. clock out at end of shift time >:D

3 minutes to get to work area at start and 3 minutes to get to clock at end >:D

Quote from: beentheredoneit on 13-03-21, 05:21PM
Lateness cannot be deducted.
It is a disciplinary matter.
You should clock in to give you time to get to your department at start of shift.
Clock off when coming from your department.
So should clock in up to 3 minutes before and out up to 3 minutes after your shift,

If you read the security thing etc and "not serving customers or going into the back on your break" etc, then your classed as a customer if you clock in early because your shift doesn't start until that time, you are classed as working once you leave the colleague area door, so by that standing you clock in exactly on time, you leave the door, and when you are clocking out, you clock out on time by giving yourself time to leave the shopfloor and get to the colleague room door....

Quote from: beentheredoneit on 13-03-21, 05:21PM
Lateness cannot be deducted.
It is a disciplinary matter.
You should clock in to give you time to get to your department at start of shift.
Clock off when coming from your department.
So should clock in up to 3 minutes before and out up to 3 minutes after your shift,

I wish I'd have known this a few years ago. Was late for work by fifteen minutes once (due to a bad accident on the way into work), apologised to my then manager, and made the time back on the same day.

Their 'thanks'? Docking me fifteen minutes come pay day... I know I should've challenged it but didn't bother as I wouldn't have seen it anyway, HMRC would've!  ???

Always been under impression that as long as the time between clocks is same as shift length then it doesn't even show up on exceptions. Quite often apologised for being late due to circumstances beyond my control but made up time at end, only to be told it had never came up on them.

Quote from: oldfashionedplayer on 13-03-21, 06:59PM

Quote from: beentheredoneit on 13-03-21, 05:21PM
Lateness cannot be deducted.
It is a disciplinary matter.
You should clock in to give you time to get to your department at start of shift.
Clock off when coming from your department.
So should clock in up to 3 minutes before and out up to 3 minutes after your shift,

If you read the security thing etc and "not serving customers or going into the back on your break" etc, then your classed as a customer if you clock in early because your shift doesn't start until that time, you are classed as working once you leave the colleague area door, so by that standing you clock in exactly on time, you leave the door, and when you are clocking out, you clock out on time by giving yourself time to leave the shopfloor and get to the colleague room door....

You should clock in at the start of your shift, then you would go to your locker as the company don't ask they TELL you that you cannot have certain personal possessions on your person due to security checks. Then at the end of your shift you would return to your locker retrieve your personal possessions and then clock out at the end of your shift. No company is allowed to have you work for nothing if you did all this on your own time you would be working an average of 6 to 10 mins a day 30 to 50 mins a week, so if you were paid £5 minimum a week for this inconvenience multiply this by 100,000 other staff and £500,000 in someone elses pocket a week just not right.   

There was a legal case supporting the above with Sports Direct warehouse practices of the 30 minute security checks being unpaid, the courts decided that this should be classed as working time and as a result had to pay a fine to HMRC and backpay employees wages. Also resulted in Mike Ashley being given the challenging conversations by the parliamentary select committee. They gave him a right royal rollocking.

A little light reading.

https://www.capitaworkforcemanagement.co.uk/news/will-sports-direct-ruling-affect-business/ (https://www.capitaworkforcemanagement.co.uk/news/will-sports-direct-ruling-affect-business/)

QuoteIn admitting to workers being underpaid because they were forced to wait in line for security checks after clocking out, Sports Direct has accepted that security checks, and by implication, other activities such as changing clothes etc. should be within paid time.

This could have implications for a huge number of companies should the Government decide to rule in favour of the HMRC, which expresses that any business in breach of employment legislation will be forced to pay arrears, as well as fined up to 200% of said arrears.

Ultimately, businesses that do not allow employees to clock-in until they are 'fully ready' to work may find themselves in the same boat as Sports Direct.

https://www.employmentsolicitor.com/sports-direct-case-shows-employers-must-adhere-employees-rights/ (https://www.employmentsolicitor.com/sports-direct-case-shows-employers-must-adhere-employees-rights/)

QuoteThis raises issues for employers such as being aware of how disciplinary schemes are being operated. There is nothing wrong with employers having disciplinary schemes but if staff, for example, are attending work when they are ill due to the fear of losing their job, then this will create a health and safety risk that could lead to claims by the employee and/or prosecution by the Health and Safety Executive.

Fantastic info and links nomad  :thumbup:

Quote from: NightAndDay on 15-03-21, 11:55AM
There was a legal case supporting the above with Sports Direct warehouse practices of the 30 minute security checks being unpaid, the courts decided that this should be classed as working time and as a result had to pay a fine to HMRC and backpay employees wages. Also resulted in Mike Ashley being given the challenging conversations by the parliamentary select committee. They gave him a right royal rollocking.

Also think it was this that led to Tesco paying pfs staff 15mins per shift clocking time to get back and forth across car park while  still doing their full shift in pfs .

Quote from: Welshie on 15-03-21, 03:43PM

Quote from: NightAndDay on 15-03-21, 11:55AM
There was a legal case supporting the above with Sports Direct warehouse practices of the 30 minute security checks being unpaid, the courts decided that this should be classed as working time and as a result had to pay a fine to HMRC and backpay employees wages. Also resulted in Mike Ashley being given the challenging conversations by the parliamentary select committee. They gave him a right royal rollocking.

Also think it was this that led to Tesco paying pfs staff 15mins per shift clocking time to get back and forth across car park while  still doing their full shift in pfs .

Like I have said before you clock in and out on time if they wish for you to be on your department then they need to pay for staff to start at an earlier time same as finishing times, I know this is abused with the checkout staff as they are logged in and out on their till and are told to be on and off at start and finish times probably increasing their working day by 10 mins if this was worked out across the company they save millions ££ If you believe you are being short changed in this way contact ACAS and complain, the more that complain the better the chance of resolve and change for colleagues.

In my old CFC the driver worked to rule by clicking in then going to get their saftey footwear on for a month, cost Tesco a small fortune as every van went late for a month,management soon stopped moaning about the 3 minute leeway.

I think you need to explain a bit more "going to get their safety footwear".  Why would that cause such a delay?

I'd assume because they would clock in, then they'd have their safety footwear stationed elsewhere, so they've arrived in normal shoes, clocked in on time, then go and get changed into said shoes, etc, but they would of probably put them far away perhaps?  ;D

Curious!  I put my safety boots on at home when I get dressed for work.  I would find to tedious to have to change footwear when I get to work and then again when I leave work.   ???

[admin]Please don't change the topic title, also please find an existing topic that your post is more suited to, or become a supporter and start your own topics.[/admin]

Quote from: gomezz on 06-05-21, 09:08PM
Curious!  I put my safety boots on at home when I get dressed for work.  I would find to tedious to have to change footwear when I get to work and then again when I leave work.   ???

If your working to rule then uniform policy and backdoor policy says you can change out as when needed, so if I do backdoor I can run up, change shoes, come down, go to backdoor deal with that, change back, as then I'm adhering to safety on the back door and can go back to comfort of my own shoes.

So could work same way  ;D

Quote from: gomezz on 05-05-21, 09:02PM
I think you need to explain a bit more "going to get their safety footwear".  Why would that cause such a delay?

Saftey footwear should be stored in the company provided locker, which over 100 drivers did.
It's a 3-5 minute walk from our clocking machines to our locker room, 7-11 minute round trip to get saftey equipment.
We worked in a CFC, the moved the clock in machine to the office and were demanding we clocked in before our shift and we had enough.

It's about making them follow rules which are poorly thought out when they make us do the same, a friend who was a rep loved this phrase.
There is always an expectation of reciprocity.
If you must follow a rule to its letter then you must follow every rule to its letter.
Work to rule and the company suffers, its not malicious, sometimes they need to understand the reciprocity.

Quote from: horatiocain on 11-05-21, 07:25PM

Quote from: gomezz on 05-05-21, 09:02PM
I think you need to explain a bit more "going to get their safety footwear".  Why would that cause such a delay?

Saftey footwear should be stored in the company provided locker,

First I have heard of that rule.

I just got informed the other day that they are trying to get as many people to start clocking in and out at the correct times I.e no 3 minutes late or early. This is due to the new working pay coming into place where you will be docked pay for doing this

Yes that's correct on the new work and pay it shows as paid absence and I think it comes of holidays. This has caused an issue with stores where you need to rely on staff ope ING the door.

They better fix our door bell then not worked for over a year don't matter who you complain to still not fixed.

Quote from: Mitsie65 on 22-08-21, 11:40PM
I just got informed the other day that they are trying to get as many people to start clocking in and out at the correct times I.e no 3 minutes late or early. This is due to the new working pay coming into place where you will be docked pay for doing this

There will definitely be a big fuss and probable strike / legal / news bit then if they do this, since they won't pay for the bits over your actual shift, so free labour and their systems will show that they aren't when challenged...

There is a subtle difference to over hours. If you choose to clock in early or clock out late it's your choice and it does not have to be paid. Some people used to clock in early and have a coffee before starting work and this can be amended by exceptions but it still sits under overtime in work & pay.
If you are asked if you can start early or stay on late this is overtime. This is accountable overtime.
There is a firm budget on hours and how much overtime the store has. A colleague that clocks in early or stays late will eat into this budget and it's hours not accounted for and can tip the store into an overspend.
Being late off a till or finishing off a job before going home can have a big impact but the biggest impact is those who clock in but go for a coffee before actually starting work.

We've been on work & pay for a few months now & no one has been docked for clocking out 3 mins early & we all do it. Guess the work & pay system does not automatically dock for doing this.

sometimes staying over your time is unavoidableon nights to clear the floor etc when delivery has been delayed or bigger than normal, as this has started at deductions from pay for 3 minutes late (despite door issues) then the important thing is not to finish/clear the floor when there is no time then leave at correct time and let others who are on shift to do it.

Wow  old thread.

All PPE that you need for your job should be kept at work and put on once you begin work, most companies do not enforce this rule but it exists in health and safety legislation.

As to the leeway, its to account for variance of events, if you're 10 meters from the clocking machine and a manager asks you a question and the conversation takes 3 minutes without the leeway they'd then need to investige why, or at the least manually check the times before paying it anyway.
It's a time to cost issue, it's cheaper to have that leeway  if people take the p**s that stops happening and they can do away with it

What I don't understand is how clocking in early / out late eats into the hours a store has?
for example if you clock in at 16.45 for a 17.00 start, then go and get changed and have a cup of tea before work, you still get paid from 17.00 you don't get the extra time paid as that's not overtime that's been assigned to you, so how can it affect the hours used by the store?

The tablet works out the hours used but not the money paid. The two things don't seem to sync as they should. Exceptions fixes the pay part of it but the aim is to minimise exceptions as it's all extra work that should not have to be done. Exceptions can't fix the used hours though so will show as used.

Quote from: Redshoes on 23-08-21, 07:58AM
There is a subtle difference to over hours. If you choose to clock in early or clock out late it's your choice and it does not have to be paid. Some people used to clock in early and have a coffee before starting work and this can be amended by exceptions but it still sits under overtime in work & pay.
If you are asked if you can start early or stay on late this is overtime. This is accountable overtime.
There is a firm budget on hours and how much overtime the store has. A colleague that clocks in early or stays late will eat into this budget and it's hours not accounted for and can tip the store into an overspend.
Being late off a till or finishing off a job before going home can have a big impact but the biggest impact is those who clock in but go for a coffee before actually starting work.

Interesting point of view from the management side of the job, when you say "If you are asked if you can start early or stay on late this is overtime" but then say the people being late finishing off a job are the one's impacting the business, yet the same people leaving the business late due to a lack of cover or just for the justification of the management wanting the job to be done before one can leave their department they are the one's not being paid correctly and if it was say checkout staff who are asked to be on their dept at start time clock in early and then finishing after their shift this would inconsequentially take them under the national minimum wage, I wonder how you would feel in this position ? Because at the end of the day you cannot expect people to work for nothing and that is what is goes on ! but you say it's their choice I strongly disagree if someone worked on whatever department that you run just downed tools 2 minutes before the end of their shift and clocked out on time leaving their job half finished I just wonder what your reaction would be............... A you would pat them on the back and say great job done thanks for leaving on time and not messing up the tablet and my exceptions or B we need to do a let's talk ??? this could lead to a disciplinary.
          When it comes to rules the management don't even clock in and out I do agree about the people that clock in and have a coffee they are causing a problem along with the people that always forget to clock in but never forget to clock out bang on time also cause a problem.
          As for tipping it into an overspent how can that be ? if a person has clocked in 30 mins early and you don't pay them and then it is somehow left on as hours worked on the system this would then be false accounting it cannot be that it would be allowable to have two different sets of accounts the stores and the tablets if this is the gist of what you are purporting to say ?     

We were told yesterday that it is now down to 2 mins as it is causing problems with exceptions. When asked why that would be was told 'I don't know.'

The only problem is trying to get to the clocking machine before, the goalposts are constantly changing all the time and not in favour of staff.

Why not just clock out at the time you finish instead of trying to grab a couple of mins? Is 120 seconds worth the hassle.

Quote from: Batmanjo on 25-08-21, 12:18PM

Quote from: Redshoes on 23-08-21, 07:58AM
There is a subtle difference to over hours. If you choose to clock in early or clock out late it's your choice and it does not have to be paid. Some people used to clock in early and have a coffee before starting work and this can be amended by exceptions but it still sits under overtime in work & pay.
If you are asked if you can start early or stay on late this is overtime. This is accountable overtime.
There is a firm budget on hours and how much overtime the store has. A colleague that clocks in early or stays late will eat into this budget and it's hours not accounted for and can tip the store into an overspend.
Being late off a till or finishing off a job before going home can have a big impact but the biggest impact is those who clock in but go for a coffee before actually starting work.

Interesting point of view from the management side of the job, when you say "If you are asked if you can start early or stay on late this is overtime" but then say the people being late finishing off a job are the one's impacting the business, yet the same people leaving the business late due to a lack of cover or just for the justification of the management wanting the job to be done before one can leave their department they are the one's not being paid correctly and if it was say checkout staff who are asked to be on their dept at start time clock in early and then finishing after their shift this would inconsequentially take them under the national minimum wage, I wonder how you would feel in this position ? Because at the end of the day you cannot expect people to work for nothing and that is what is goes on ! but you say it's their choice I strongly disagree if someone worked on whatever department that you run just downed tools 2 minutes before the end of their shift and clocked out on time leaving their job half finished I just wonder what your reaction would be............... A you would pat them on the back and say great job done thanks for leaving on time and not messing up the tablet and my exceptions or B we need to do a let's talk ??? this could lead to a disciplinary.
           

This is why PFS people got a massive payout the other year, they were expected to clock on and get to their station at the time of starting their shift and finish at the time stated then walk back to store to clock off so they get a 15 min payment now each way. If you get penalised for leaving at your finish time simply put in a grievance asking for all the back pay that they owe you. 

We've not had a manager in my pfs for a long while, probably near enough a year now. They are now working elsewhere. We pretty much run ourselves. Especially when it comes to covering shifts etc. But yet we still get the same rate of pay as checkouts. I don't get it. With all the duties we have, and given the danger of working in a pfs, and the lack of support from duty.. and the not answering phones.. and now there's no bookers and we physically have to go over the store to do massive transfers of stock (we are a busy pfs).. bradgate/fasttrak, the car wash, fuelling up for disabled customers..along with many more responsibilities.. we should at the very least be on the same rate of Pay as CSD.  ..wonder if anyone else feels the same as we do in our pfs..

[admin]I think you should find a more suitable topic for your post, or become a supporter and start your own topics.[/admin]

We have now been told that the 3 min leeway is no longer. We cannot clock in or out until bang on our start/finish time. Is this a new Tesco policy or just another manager talking s***? Thanks

manager talking rubbish, speak to any checkout person and ask them when they get taken off the till, its normaly either right bang on finish time or later.

Quote from: fatboy on 17-10-21, 09:17AM
We have now been told that the 3 min leeway is no longer. We cannot clock in or out until bang on our start/finish time. Is this a new Tesco policy or just another manager talking s***? Thanks

Great...now get that short sighted manager to put it on dept team 5 or in writing! Then they can explain to the SM why their dept colleagues aren't on time on the shop floor, and leaving early?

So if there's a few dept's starting at the same time...you have to wait your turn in the queue...'tis only polite after all!! Ditto for leaving dept before time, as you have to clock off " bang on time" and there may be another queue  :). Only following order's innit  ;)

We can clock in up to 10 minutes before our shifts in our store

Quote from: lucgeo on 17-10-21, 10:43AM

Quote from: fatboy on 17-10-21, 09:17AM
We have now been told that the 3 min leeway is no longer. We cannot clock in or out until bang on our start/finish time. Is this a new Tesco policy or just another manager talking s***? Thanks

Great...now get that short sighted manager to put it on dept team 5 or in writing! Then they can explain to the SM why their dept colleagues aren't on time on the shop floor, and leaving early?

So if there's a few dept's starting at the same time...you have to wait your turn in the queue...'tis only polite after all!! Ditto for leaving dept before time, as you have to clock off " bang on time" and there may be another queue  :). Only following order's innit  ;)

We have a note/A4 poster in our store stating that "Since we are now on Work and Pay, how you clock in/clock out has changed. Clock in when you start your shift. Clock out when you finish. Do not clock in/out for breaks"

We also previously had a previous note stating that we shouldn't be "clocking in until we're ready to start our shift" (rather than clocking in, going upstairs, get washed and changed, have a cup of tea, have a chat, go to toilet, wash hands, have a cup of tea and then come down) - So would the "old system" have been so stupid that if I came in at 915 for my 10.00 shift and clocked in when I got in - and then did all the above (tea/chat/wash etc.) - would I ever have got paid 45 mins more than I should?

For info, I don't think I've ever arrived much more than 5 mins before my shift start time!!

Clocking in early just causes extra work for others. It shows up on an exception, your manager has to adjust the times and wages then needed to input the info. There was a time that even though the time was adjusted via expectations and people were not paid for it the tablet still had it as overtime so it reduced the overtime for the store as was showing as an overspend. Once on work and pay the system talks to the different parts better but there is a lot of extra work to be done. Asking people not to clock in early is probably just to try and reduce the workload. Things will balance out but to begin with there is a lot of work to be done as it is moving to a whole new system. People also have to get used to it so not doing an unnecessary task will be a saving.

Not like Tesco to utilise over complicated systems...probably got them as a cheap job lot from other companies' in their not fit for purpose defunct bins!

Hell, they were still using Amipro in the offices, up to about 10 years ago!!

ours has a sign up too, needless to say that colleagues have already written over it saying "pay us right to begin with and we will"  ;D

Quote from: Redshoes on 19-10-21, 08:46AM
Clocking in early just causes extra work for others. It shows up on an exception, your manager has to adjust the times and wages then needed to input the info. There was a time that even though the time was adjusted via expectations and people were not paid for it the tablet still had it as overtime so it reduced the overtime for the store as was showing as an overspend. Once on work and pay the system talks to the different parts better but there is a lot of extra work to be done. Asking people not to clock in early is probably just to try and reduce the workload. Things will balance out but to begin with there is a lot of work to be done as it is moving to a whole new system. People also have to get used to it so not doing an unnecessary task will be a saving.

Oh, the humanity! :D ;D

Often it can take ages to clock in I find.Through no fault of my own,say you just come in.Your fingers may be cold or having taken gloves off a few minutes before your fingers may be too warm.For the good old days of clocking in and out on a clock card.

I'm now coming to the conclusion that Tesco is trying to down size our sales,,, so not only have bookers grocery been stop, now the tobacco products have been more than half during the last 3 weeks and the car Accessories gone ad blue to 1 ( from 68 ish p/W). We are currently still double manned on 12 pumps closing at 10pm and 4 being p@p. No Visibility of a manager for last 12 ish weeks. Any problems duty will say tell your manager not their problem. 2 staff down, yet store saying can't employe as every where over hours, I love my job, but Tesco management really don't get a damn.

Quote from: lucgeo on 19-10-21, 01:52PM
Not like Tesco to utilise over complicated systems...probably got them as a cheap job lot from other companies' in their not fit for purpose defunct bins!

Hell, they were still using Amipro in the offices, up to about 10 years ago!!

i saw it in use still last year...

Quote from: Robert Onedin. on 19-10-21, 09:38PM
Often it can take ages to clock in I find.Through no fault of my own,say you just come in.Your fingers may be cold or having taken gloves off a few minutes before your fingers may be too warm.For the good old days of clocking in and out on a clock card.

Eh? dont you use a clockcard then?

Some places are fingerprint only for clocking in now I believe.

Really, blimey when did that happen?

we had a woman on nights superglue someones clocking card she found on the floor into one of our clocking machines a few years back,she kept her job,but had a final written,as she admitted doing it as a joke

We've had our finger print to clock in and out for about 2 years now. Takes forever two finger machine when it's takes ages to clock in and out

I hope it's not made by the same people tesco buy our PDA/Printer cabinets from: it usually takes a minimum of four attempts before the bloody thing recognises your fingerprint.

Cheap cr@p that will break down regularly. Just like most things the geniuses at head office buy. 8-)

anyone else know if this is just when you start your shift?

often by the time you get customers out the store and put trolley etc away, its at least 5 minutes past your clock out time, and im working in GM - the people on the tills and customer service desk or doing the shutters on the door always end up over 10 minutes late finishing.

(also to the posts above? fingerprints? what? i hope not! it already takes me 2-4 swipes with my card to get it to recognise me.. if its fingerprints like the PDA machines then thats worse... only took me 8 attempts last shift to put the PDA away - causing me to clock off late)

"Sir" Dave Lewis is proclaimed as, "the man who saved Tesco".

A big part of his strategy involved stealing money directly out of the workers' pockets. Sundays and bank holidays went from double time down to time and a half and then down again to time and a quarter. The Christmas bonuses were completely stopped and the pension scheme was massively reduced.

Drastic Dave (the media's name for him, not mine) then received a £6.4 million payout and a knighthood, whilst the loyal workers who had built Tesco up over decades were all left wondering what the hell had happened!

The union USDAW (AKA Useless Seven Days A Week) is funded by the monthly fees of members and will help members with trivial in-store issues, but if you need to fight against Tesco itself, they will say (and I quote), "USDAW works in partnership with Tesco".

You read that right! They're funded by workers but are in partnership with an entity that might at times be the enemy! USDAW stood by and let Tesco take away almost everything from its members.

So if you therefore go to an employment tribunal (like I did), but decide to make the claim yourself, rather than use a union that you know is in the pocket of Tesco, the opening gambit by Tesco's barrister (which you as a lowly paid worker could never even possibly hope to afford) is, "even USDAW don't feel that the claimant has a case". So you're on the back foot from day one.

I lost the tribunal and was forced to sell my family home of nearly 30 years because Tesco had threatened me with costs if I didn't withdraw the claim. And when they did this, I couldn't tell the Employment Tribunal that they had threatened me because the law permits these big firms to intimidate claimants in this way if they make the threat on a "without prejudice" basis.

I went from being the highest performing customer delivery driver (having received 214 positive customer reviews in just under 24 months) and the first driver in the store to ever receive a "gold" badge (even though the department had been running for 15 years when I started there) to losing my house and having to live in a van. All this because the department boss made my life hell after I reported to her that I would, "not break the law for ANYBODY", after I had been called in on my day off and coerced into working a double driving shift without a break.

A barrister and EIGHT 'witnesses' (coached by a £multimillion legal team) all turned up and lied through their teeth at that tribunal. The judge even allowed the department boss (that I had made the protected disclosure to) to change her testimony to something different to what she had put in her witness statement!

Several other drivers had been forced to work double shifts without breaks (I even supplied a letter from another driver and proved the store manager was lying when he said, "Tesco would never allow this to happen" - but the judge had no interest in it), but how many witnesses could I rely on? NONE..... because I wouldn't ask anybody to risk reprisals (in a similar fashion to what I had suffered) from an employer that they all still worked for!

In the first two days, I was subjected to a full day and a half of interrogation style questioning from a fully trained employment law barrister and  I was only allowed to answer "yes" or "no", yet when I attempted to adopt that approach when cross-examining, the barrister objected and the judge upheld the objection and told me that I couldn't use that style of questioning because I hadn't been legally trained!???

First example (after having been portrayed as an aggressive man to the judge and two lay people - despite having fought and had two untruthful accusations from customers overturned - and supplied evidence to prove that was the case):

Barr: "It's true that you're an angry aggressive man isn't it?"

Me: "No" (because I can only say yes or no).

Barr: "so you're saying everyone here is lying" [Barr looks at the judge].

Me: [looking pleadingly at the judge and stammering] "Yes".

Barr: [looks at the judge].

[Judge looks discompassionately at me].

Blatant lies were told about me in the tribunal and not one single piece of the evidence I supplied to prove my case was acknowledged.

And despite the overwhelming odds being against me and me realising by now that I had a biased judge, I still proved that several of the managers were lying, yet the judge called ME a liar in the judgement summary.

I did not lie once. Not ever and even though I PROVED they had lied, I still lost and was humiliated in the judgement.
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Employment Tribunals are supposed to be a non-legalistic forum to create a level playing field in a David versus Goliath situation. That judge let that barrister interrogate me for a day and a half without intervening once.

She than went on to make a factual error in the judgement (she got a crucial date wrong), but even though I appealed, the senior judges in London would not allow my appeal.

It sickens me that the law is completely on the side of the £multi-million law-breaking businesses and I will not rest until I see a BIG CHANGE made in favour of working people.

‐----------------------------------------------------------------------'
If someone from Tesco reads this and either you or the judge want to sue me..... DO YOUR WORST!

You can't take anything off somebody who you've already left with nothing.

You won the battle that day, but I'm telling you now, it will be a COLD DAY IN HELL before I give up my mission to expose Tesco for the lying, back-stabbing, corner-cutting, life-endangering company that it is and the Employment Tribunal for the biased and unjust place it is too.

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I'm heartened by this greedy man being exposed for receiving another £4.4 million, stolen from the Tesco workforce.

Tesco workers...... don't be put off by my story. I am just one man against a £multimillion organisation. As such, I made some inevitable mistakes

But you can still unite and fight against your dishonorable employer if you want to. But don't waste your time with USDAW because they will just stand by and take the side of Tesco.

If you see ANYTHING illegal happening, report it but do EVERYTHING by email and get photographs and proof of everything and try to get unbiased witnesses (not USDAW) to corroborate anything that you report.

Don't let them get away with it! I'm not finished yet. 🤜🤛

Oh wow  :o

You've certainly found out the hard way that USDAW are only fit to pay lip service to instore petty rules. They concentrate on union membership for paying their huge salaries and expenses for glorified gala events and award ceremonies!

My heart goes out to you on how much you've lost to fight for your rights ( or wrongs in this case)  :(

Sometimes journalists have been known to post questions on this site, perhaps one will read this and be interested in highlighting your case ???

QuoteIf you see ANYTHING illegal happening, report it but do EVERYTHING by email and get photographs and proof of everything and try to get unbiased witnesses (not USDAW) to corroborate anything that you report.

Matches one of my favourite 'chants' GET IT IN WRITING.

Can we go back to the topic.

@RightsDefender
:thumbup:

@RightsDefender I'm glad they let you get away with kinda hijacking the thread here so far n I hope they let it stay cos this is the most amazingly well written and pointed things I've read on here in a while. I never got as far as tribunals (yet) but have now been just nearly fired for the second time for just basically doing the right thing and pointing things out... everything you say about their machinations is recognisable to me, it's just transparently evil and just documenting it as you have will help others see through it, it might be the best thing you can do.