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Author Topic: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy  (Read 5009 times)

optout

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The things that managers say are reasonable alternatives during the redundancy process is really bugging me, so, here are a few that are not reasonable alternatives; (unless YOU accept that they are reasonable in your circumstances).

nights to days
days to nights
days to twilights
twilights to days etc


full time to part time
fixed contract to flexi contract


Another store that is much farther away
Week-days to weekends
Days or hours, that are unreasonable for you because of childcare issues etc.
A role that is significantly different to the current role.

A POSITION THAT IS 'A REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE' FOR ONE PERSON, MAY NOT BE 'A REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE' FOR ANOTHER.



I am aware of the significance/importance of these issues at present, as I am sure many will be deciding what is reasonable or unreasonable for themselves in these life-changing times. So I would appreciate it if we can stick to factual stuff on this thread, so that others can use it as a reference.
so if you have any examples that are or are not reasonable alternatives, or have questions or advice on this subject, please contribute to this thread.

To start off I have found this link that explains the basics in a pretty much jargon free way.
https://youtu.be/TZEC9OMpqDA
« Last Edit: 21-02-19, 09:22PM by optout »
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Riddler99

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #1 on: 21-02-19, 09:23PM »
Thanks for this. I’m full time on Stock control and can’t really change my hours due to childcare. I am actually hoping for a redundancy.

optout

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #2 on: 21-02-19, 09:53PM »
Please let us know how you get on, so that others can learn from your experiences. :thumbup:
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Riddler99

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #3 on: 21-02-19, 10:05PM »
Will do. Here’s for hoping 😁

Wandy

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #4 on: 22-02-19, 08:46AM »
Thanks optout that’s interesting-I went from twilights to 5:30am starts and was told it was a job match! I absolutely went as far as I could with it-end result was no redundancy-take the job or leave. Now going thru it all again-3rd time....

Riddler99

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #5 on: 22-02-19, 08:49AM »
I think unless you have childcare issues etc, they can change your hours quiet drastically if they want Wendy. I have no way of changing mine else my wife would lose her job

fatboy

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #6 on: 22-02-19, 09:03AM »
What would be a reasonable distance to travel if they want you to work from a different store? Is there anything in black & white?

Youngblood

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #7 on: 22-02-19, 09:06AM »
What about almost full time to part time? Does anything under 36.5 count as part time and therefore not unreasonable to drop? A lot of the people affected at my store do between 32 and 36.5 hours. Surely it's just as unreasonable to massively slash 32 hours as it is 36.5?

Nomad

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #8 on: 22-02-19, 10:46AM »
If I did 32 hrs a week and during consultation found alternative employment of 32 or more hrs then I would consider it very unreasonable/difficult for your present employer to refuse redundancy on the grounds that what they had offered was reasonable.

As has been said "reasonable" is a judgement call by both parties, put yourself in a mediators shoes and be honest/practical with your thoughts.
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Wandy

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #9 on: 22-02-19, 11:08AM »
I think unless you have childcare issues etc, they can change your hours quiet drastically if they want Wendy. I have no way of changing mine else my wife would lose her job

I had two young children-6 and 1 😞

Riddler99

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #10 on: 22-02-19, 11:10AM »
As though. I have 2 aged 6 and 1 now. But my wife goes work in evenings as soon as I finish. So it would mean her losing her job. So it will definitely be unreasonable. Obviously unless they keep me on earlier full time

optout

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #11 on: 22-02-19, 05:05PM »
@Wendy, when you say that you took it as far as you could, what did you do?


Is there anybody else on here who has had a different experience, in a similar situation to Wendy?
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tescopleb

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #12 on: 22-02-19, 08:01PM »
Forget the partnership agreement this is where useless really let's it's members down. It has no excuse for not being an effective presence in these circumstances it's role should be protect its members from unscrulpulous managers. No reason area organisers can't get involved, not to undermine the store reps but  to use their position effectively
« Last Edit: 22-02-19, 08:07PM by tescopleb »
 

tescopleb

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #13 on: 22-02-19, 08:09PM »
Sorry realise it's off topic but just makes me mad
 

optout

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #14 on: 22-02-19, 11:16PM »
@Wandy, sorry I misread your name as wendy.


@fatboy
This site seems to sum up the state of play in the following paragraph.

https://www.theemploymentlawsolicitors.co.uk/redundancy-solicitors/

Unfortunately, there is very little guidance on what constitutes ‘suitable alternative employment’ and ‘unreasonable refusal’ of it, although the burden of proof is on the employer to prove both. The criteria relating to ‘suitability’ include pay, location, status, hours, etc and those relating to ‘reasonable refusal’ depend on individual circumstances (e.g. domestic circumstances).[/size][/color][/size][/color][/size][/color][/size][/color][/size][/color][/size][/color][/size]My advice would be to contact ACAS, as if things progressed to tribunal stage, you would have had to have gone through them first anyway. It costs nothing to ask for ACAS's advice, and they are only a phone call away.[/color][/size][/color][/size][/color]
[/size][/size][/size][/color]
The Acas helpline number is 0300 123 1100. It is available Monday to Friday 8am-6pm.
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optout

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #15 on: 22-02-19, 11:25PM »
@Fatboy
also found this; here; https://www.lawdonut.co.uk/business/employment-law/dismissals-and-redundancies/redundancy-faqs#Red19

19. Do we have to give redundancy pay to employees who have turned down alternative employment two miles away?This will depend on:whether the alternative employment is suitable
  • whether the employees' refusal of it is reasonable
  • If the new job is the same as, or similar to the old job in terms of content, pay, hours of work and prospects, then it will constitute suitable alternative employment. Whether it is reasonable to refuse suitable alternative employment is assessed subjectively, from the employee's point of view. On the face of it, relocation to a new workplace just two miles away from the old workplace is a relatively small change to terms and conditions of employment. However, it may pose particular problems for some employees in terms of travelling time or domestic commitments and, in those circumstances, a refusal to relocate would probably be reasonable.
ps (note to mods, can't seem to control paragraph formating and formating indicators, when copy and pasting, so sorry it is unintentional)
« Last Edit: 22-02-19, 11:28PM by optout »
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Welshie

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #16 on: 23-02-19, 07:52AM »
"Probably" be unreasonable . To me that is very vague and is an open door for Tesco to force people in to other jobs .
From personal experience, I can say that with the exception of nights to days or days to nights , the union will class everything else as reasonable and join Tesco management in trying to bully you into taking the first job offered .
Fight your corner for a job that suits you , if they have decided that redundancy is not on offer then you won't change their mind but at least try and get a job/hours  that you can actually do . I was allowed to see heat map .

Redshoes

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #17 on: 23-02-19, 08:52AM »
What is unreasonable to one is not to another, we are individuals and as such we can accept or decline.
I accepted a move to a store further away, it suited me as I was was in a store every close to home and I prefer to travel. I don't like paying the travel costs but I much prefer that break away from work when not working. Things like shopping on days off or during holidays.
I was also offered a huge reduction in hours that I had turned down. I had to go that bit further out to get the hours but I rather like the drive, it's chill time for me but there is no way I could do this without a car and the cost of fuel is not great but upon balance I have no regrets. I am very happy in the store I now work in.

londoner83

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #18 on: 23-02-19, 09:55AM »
What's unreasonable to one isn't to another.

Example I need you to start 1/2 hr earlier:-
Employee 1) I drive so although I will have to get up earlier its no issue.
Employee 2) I already get the first bus of the day so that would require me to walk 4 miles down unlit country lanes in all weathers & as a young female  I dont feel safe to do so.

If you are going to turn down a change in hours, you just need to be able to explain why you cant move in a way others will understand.

Scott1

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #19 on: 23-02-19, 12:35PM »
A bit off topic but kinda related, has anyone been asked over the last few weeks to sign off on a change of job code? ie stock control merchandise nights too merchandising assistant, I just think it’s a bit strange 4 weeks before they start to restructure my department. Any thoughts would be appreciated tia

Fudge340

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #20 on: 23-02-19, 02:42PM »
I have had my code changed as a admin, and our stockie has also. Tesco have asked for everyone’s to be checked as they have thousands of job codes that are not used, and many with just a few people on them. They are data cleansing and want to remove all unused codes, all stock controllers, admins, TL will be on the correct code depending on store size, And all the incorrect ones will be deleted.

Scott1

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #21 on: 23-02-19, 02:58PM »
I’m in an extra store and I’ve been getting paid with my job code for the last 6 years I’m just a wee bit worried incase they’re trying to pull a fast one in regards to me agreeing to be in a different job before they start moving hours.

Wandy

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #22 on: 23-02-19, 03:00PM »
@Wendy, when you say that you took it as far as you could, what did you do?


Is there anybody else on here who has had a different experience, in a similar situation to Wendy?

I took it to the union, the sd, wrote to Dave Lewis and asked 101+ questions to all of them regarding the unsuitable job match and received the same answer from them all-it’s a reasonable alternative and either take the job or leave. My store manager at the time-when I finally got to the end of my consultation and had to accept it-he only turned around to me and said he agreed it was not a job match!  >:(

Wandy

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #23 on: 23-02-19, 03:01PM »
@optout
No worries 👍

optout

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Re: examples of 'unreasonable alternatives', in redundancy
« Reply #24 on: 23-02-19, 06:18PM »
The lesson here is that you cannot trust the union or anybody connected with tesco. Hopefully others and yourself (in future) will call ACAS or contact your CAB for advice instead.
It may well have been (or not) a 'suitable alternative' to them, BUT that does not mean to say that it would have been 'unreasonable' for you to turn it down, and that is what tesco have to prove.So the question to ask is not; is it a suitable alternative? The question to ask next time is; can tesco prove that it is unreasonable (given your individual circumstances) for you to turn down the offer?
That is what the union and tesco did in your case; they answered the first question but did not ask the second question, so it could not (read would not) be answered, any real union would have asked the second question. Expect the same from them this time around as well, and get their response (with reasons) to the second question in writing.
« Last Edit: 23-02-19, 06:28PM by optout »
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