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Very Little Helps => All departments => Topic started by: dfl on 08-11-19, 10:57AM

Title: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 08-11-19, 10:57AM
Manager trying to force a non flexi worker to change their shifts from hours they normally do to other hours which the employee doesn't want to do, Hours the employee normally does are at times over the festive when the shop is being closed, ie new years eve, xmas eve etc. Employee wants to just take the time unpaid and even tho has been allowed every year under a previous manager, new manager says its not allowed. Also holiday days can't be taken as new manager had everyone prebook ALL their holidays in advance.

Any comments/suggestions welcome.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Cleaner1 on 08-11-19, 11:02AM
fk that
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: DJL on 08-11-19, 11:06AM
If it’s a contracted day that falls on one of the festive bank holiday days then they will use a bank holiday entitlement day.

If it doesn’t and they just want unpaid time off, then that can’t happen unless previously authorised by store manager via holiday planning meeting and this exception identified and planned!
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Cleaner1 on 08-11-19, 11:21AM
Book one off with the store manager go sick the next. Then say you never asked for last year and ask for year 3.  Ohh great year 4 and year 5 christmas don't fall on contract days. :)  :-X
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 08-11-19, 12:48PM
Its xmas and new years eve, the employee is contracted in those evenings but the store is closed at the times the employee would normally work, the employee did want to hold holidays back to use but management refused to allow it (refusing time off during festive periods). My point kinda is that the employee doesn't have to change shifts especially if it doesnt work for the employee just because management themselves have made it impossible to keep days back for it
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Mark calloway on 08-11-19, 03:03PM
I work nights and Xmas Eve falls on my normal night. Apparently they are trying to force us to do a 4pm till 11.30. well I for 1 can't do that. I've got disabled dependants,that why i work nights. Can they FORCE me to work that shift? If they can then I'm "ringing in"
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 08-11-19, 03:26PM
That's what I'm asking here, surely the employee can't be forced, if their contract specifies specific shifts then it isn't the employees fault the store is closed !
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: DJL on 08-11-19, 07:41PM
I work nights and Xmas Eve falls on my normal night. Apparently they are trying to force us to do a 4pm till 11.30. well I for 1 can't do that. I've got disabled dependants,that why i work nights. Can they FORCE me to work that shift? If they can then I'm "ringing in"
Again it depends on your bank holiday days remaining.  Usually nights have the eve plus Xmas day as bank holiday days; days are Xmas day and Boxing Day, so you will have a BH allowance time have that time off.

If the store is wanting people in, that’s fine, but they can’t force you to work it, instead you will use the allowance to ‘pay’ for these days
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: DJL on 08-11-19, 07:42PM
That's what I'm asking here, surely the employee can't be forced, if their contract specifies specific shifts then it isn't the employees fault the store is closed !
You should know there are normal holiday allowance, plus bank holiday allowance to use up over the year. If you have used up both then you need to work the time, if not you use, in relation to the festive period, time from your bank holiday allowance
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Slimjim51 on 09-11-19, 12:13AM
Dfl, are you not allowed time off under the timevoff for dependants? Night shift are supposed to vote on whether they want Xmas Eve or New year's Eve off .Check with usdaw.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 09-11-19, 07:24AM
The days in question cant be filled for the employee by using any bh entitlement or holidays because the xmas eve and new years eve arent classed as bh also the manager made everyone book all their holidays in advance but also wouldnt allow any to be booked in december
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 09-11-19, 07:30AM
Oh, and just found that I believe the store is going to be open till late evening on those days but the employee is a driver and that dept isn't vans aren't delivering, employee has already said will do their own contracted shift time even if its in another dept but manager is being difficult and saying that they have to come in on another day or time, sorry but I think employee doesn't have to change any times as not their fault that
1) their dept isn't delivering
2) they have contracted shifts for a reason
3) no holidays left as management had the staff book them all.
4) even if not all booked management won't allow to book any in December
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: lucgeo on 09-11-19, 07:51AM
If the store is open for their whole shift, then they just work their shift on another dept.

If the store is open part of their shift, then they would be asked to accommodate by working earlier on that day....not to change days/shifts. If they were unable to accommodate due to other commitments/arrangements, then they could arrange to either take as unpaid, holiday, shift swap or work time back. This should have all been discussed when booking personal day, which incidentally was always kept back in my old store, to use by the drivers and .com staff as no picks or deliveries Christmas Eve.

There are no freeze weeks, and December holidays are at discretion of SM, based on the % of store colleagues holidays booked in December. It used to state in the handbook that your personal day was to take during December, I don't know if that is still the case in the policies online, but I'm pretty sure it would still state "no freeze weeks"  ???
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Mark calloway on 09-11-19, 01:41PM
Our manager has TOLD us what our personal day Is. Regarding Xmas Eve,I can't come in at 4pm. I can't expect my kids to be put to bed at 3pm.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: T2019sackallmanagers on 09-11-19, 03:43PM
Just go sick. They expected us a few years back to work 10-7am (nights) into Xmas eve, then come back in at 4-12pm Xmas eve. The same idiot manager then expected us back in at 10pm on boxing day! This company and the way it is run beggar's belief. They assume everyone is a sad act that lives and breathes for this terrible company.
Can't wait to see it go down the pan and it's already on its way to the sewers.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Rad on 10-11-19, 08:28PM
Its xmas and new years eve, the employee is contracted in those evenings but the store is closed at the times the employee would normally work, the employee did want to hold holidays back to use but management refused to allow it (refusing time off during festive periods). My point kinda is that the employee doesn't have to change shifts especially if it doesnt work for the employee just because management themselves have made it impossible to keep days back for it

Plenty Express stores open.  The colleague can go and fulfil their contract at one of those stores and work till 10 or 11pm. 
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Rad on 10-11-19, 08:37PM
Hadn't read all the comments.  Solution is there.  Work in a different dept.  Contact PM to confirm its fine. 
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Cleaner1 on 10-11-19, 10:17PM
I work nights and Xmas Eve falls on my normal night. Apparently they are trying to force us to do a 4pm till 11.30. well I for 1 can't do that. I've got disabled dependants,that why i work nights. Can they FORCE me to work that shift? If they can then I'm "ringing in"

It's like when they ask you in early for the Stock take fk that shift ring in.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Mark calloway on 10-11-19, 11:31PM
I'm not signing the form that's for sure. Also they've got us working a 10/7 on the 23rd so that's less than the legal 11 hrs between shifts.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Long gone on 11-11-19, 12:54AM
I'm not signing the form that's for sure. Also they've got us working a 10/7 on the 23rd so that's less than the legal 11 hrs between shifts.

11 hours between shifts were not followed in our store. We had people do 2-11 shifts and then they would be back in at 6 am the next morning
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: takethemoneyandrun on 11-11-19, 04:58AM
Our manager has TOLD us what our personal day Is. Regarding Xmas Eve,I can't come in at 4pm. I can't expect my kids to be put to bed at 3pm.
Your personal day is your choice tell them go fornicate them selves ..
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 11-11-19, 07:39AM
Personal day I think is the one that they tell you that has to be used on the 2nd January in Scotland (correct me if wrong), I think in short though the employee who spoke to me regarding this hassle from dictating manager is likely to say "sorry but I'll work in another dept on those days" as I don't think manager can force the change upon the employee.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Redshoes on 11-11-19, 01:14PM
If you join us on or before 30th September in a particular holiday year, then you will be able to take an additional paid day off called a ‘Personal Day’ at any point in the year. This additional day is given on the basis that you complete at least six months’ service within that holiday year.

If you particularly want to take the day between 1st December and 31st January then you can do so, but otherwise the day can be agreed with your manager.

If you work in Scotland, or on the Isle of Man you can use your Personal Day on the ninth bank holiday if you are normally scheduled to work the day and you do not want to do so.

This day is paid as one day’s contractual pay and must be taken and not paid in lieu. The only exception is for colleagues on maternity, adoption or shared parental leave who will have the day carried over to the following year if they have not taken it by 31st March.

Colleagues who are on prolonged absence will not be paid in lieu or have the day carried over to the new holiday year.

If you leave Tesco before the 30th September in a particular year (and have therefore not completed six months’ service within that holiday year) and you have already taken your Personal Day(s), the amount of money equal to this extra day(s) will be deducted from your final pay.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 11-11-19, 04:09PM
So in summary, would this employee have to change shift (they aren't a flexi worker) or can they basically say to the manager "no mate sorry I can't, I will just work the shift in another dept".
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Redshoes on 12-11-19, 08:49AM
Are they trained? Does another dept have unfilled hours that are available?
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 12-11-19, 09:22AM
Not sure if they have been trained in other depts, will ask, but even if they have been, would they have to change hours of work as they would clearly be being asked/told/demanded to do that.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Welshie on 12-11-19, 09:47AM
Surely if shop is closed they can't work their own hours ?
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 12-11-19, 10:26AM
If shop closed then yes i agree they cant work their own hours, question is tho can they then be made to change to different hours which dont suit them. Management quite frankly made sure they had no holidays left to take, make it clear they arent getting holidays approved in december, all in it looks like an attempt to force the employee to be available in december for the store at any times management wants.

So again would you think employee would have to move hours outwith what their contract states if they dont want to or cant
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Welshie on 12-11-19, 06:30PM
Are they a new employee ?  As they must have known dotcom dont deliver on xmas eve and should have pushed that point at holiday meeting . The dotcom management usually push for staff to take holiday or personal day on xmas eve as it means they dont have to cover it another day , it benefits them so it seems very strange that they wouldn't allow this person to to book it off . 
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Rad on 12-11-19, 10:32PM
If shop closed then yes i agree they cant work their own hours, question is tho can they then be made to change to different hours which dont suit them. Management quite frankly made sure they had no holidays left to take, make it clear they arent getting holidays approved in december, all in it looks like an attempt to force the employee to be available in december for the store at any times management wants.

So again would you think employee would have to move hours outwith what their contract states if they dont want to or cant

I mentioned before, the colleague can just say, they have plans and want to work their contract hours.  Im sure express fuel sites are open till 11pm on xmas eve,  and regular express stores are open until 1000, usually finish up at 1030pm.

We're all one company.  I'm sure the store you are in has a buddy express store , who struggle to cover the eves.  What a gesture that would be of solidarity.  It's time to get the PM and the union involved.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: madness on 12-11-19, 10:41PM
ga in superstore or extra couldnt handle an express store ga's work or expectations
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 13-11-19, 01:15PM
Are they a new employee ?  As they must have known dotcom dont deliver on xmas eve and should have pushed that point at holiday meeting . The dotcom management usually push for staff to take holiday or personal day on xmas eve as it means they dont have to cover it another day , it benefits them so it seems very strange that they wouldn't allow this person to to book it off . 

The manager was apparently adamant at the time that no staff were being allowed to book any time off in december, so that was never pushed, exactly the opposite was the case
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Long gone on 13-11-19, 03:50PM
ga in superstore or extra couldnt handle an express store ga's work or expectations

Working in express is easy in comparison to extra, in express you have basically zero management, in the extra store I had about 7 managers all giving me grief and all giving everyone a million jobs and expecting them to be done in an hour and then expecting staff to work over their hours for the jobs they didn’t manage to finish
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: lackofinterest on 13-11-19, 04:16PM
ga in superstore or extra couldnt handle an express store ga's work or expectations
wouldn't want to even if i couldn't!!
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Nomad on 13-11-19, 05:25PM
Administrator Comment Topic is "XMAS eve/new years eve Hours", not work load etc comparisons.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: forrestgimp on 13-11-19, 05:56PM
Sounds to me like they have been told no overtime and are trying to cover shifts. If the shop is shut and your shift falls in the time its shut policy was IIRC that you could simply take it unpaid use a holiday day or change your shift it was up to you.

Put in a grievance.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: lucgeo on 13-11-19, 06:23PM
If shop closed then yes i agree they cant work their own hours, question is tho can they then be made to change to different hours which dont suit them. Management quite frankly made sure they had no holidays left to take, make it clear they arent getting holidays approved in december, all in it looks like an attempt to force the employee to be available in december for the store at any times management wants.

So again would you think employee would have to move hours outwith what their contract states if they dont want to or cant

No, it's a 2 way street, the colleague does the hours they do, because of their commitments, and that's all they have to say, they have made arrangements, have commitments ( they don't have to say what) if the store is open for all their shift, they work that shift, that is their contracted hours. They offer to work shop floor or  wherever needed for that shift, if their department is closed, or they take the option as unpaid, as they have offered to support elsewhere but been unreasonably declined.

Colleagues in superstores or extras, whose routines drastically decline or cease during Christmas week, e.g. Stock controllers, should have been spoken to by now as to which department they have been pledged to support to work their part or full shift. Your manager should have done this during the management meeting of pledges??
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 13-11-19, 09:33PM
Excellent comments folks and very helpful
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Cleaner1 on 13-11-19, 10:37PM
Administrator Comment Deleted off topic.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 14-11-19, 08:34PM
Employee met with manager who wouldnt budge, offer was made to do a sunday shift (5 hrs) in return for having the 2 eves unpaid, that got refused by the manager and employee has been told just to do their normal 1800-2200 shift, however its been confirmed now store will close about 8. Comments on this/advice i can pass on would be welcome.

Oh and also iirc is there not a minimum shift length tesco need to pay as now employee will likely only have 2 x 2 hr shifts on these eves ?
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: madness on 14-11-19, 08:40PM
Stores can close at an earlier time and still have people working. ours closes at 7pm and will still have staff there until 10 on both xmas eve and new years.  I have closed my departments earlier and will just pick up the pieces on the 26th and the 2nd but other departments are running until 10.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 14-11-19, 09:25PM
This store in question wont be on till 10, employee has already been told 2000 hrs
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: lucgeo on 15-11-19, 06:36AM
Employee met with manager who wouldnt budge, offer was made to do a sunday shift (5 hrs) in return for having the 2 eves unpaid, that got refused by the manager and employee has been told just to do their normal 1800-2200 shift, however its been confirmed now store will close about 8. Comments on this/advice i can pass on would be welcome.

Oh and also iirc is there not a minimum shift length tesco need to pay as now employee will likely only have 2 x 2 hr shifts on these eves ?
This store in question wont be on till 10, employee has already been told 2000 hrs

There should be no stand alone shift of less than 3 hours...however, as your colleague has already offered to take the whole shift as unpaid leave, and then they agreed for him to do his normal 4 hour shift, and now been told to to finish at 8 instead of ten, would it not be better to stay ignorant of that fact for the time being, and then if the colleague is happy to just do 2 hours, stay ignorant, but if not, to bring this ruling (brought to his attention by the union  ;))to the attention of that manager the day before, suggest an alternative of four hours that is suitable for him, refusing any other suggested shift as arrangements already made at home, and too short a notice. Chances are, they'll accept any shift he offers as they'll be all hands most of the day!
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 15-11-19, 08:34AM
Lucgeo, yes ignorance of that would likely be best, I've said to my colleague to raise a grievance direct to the store manager for another point that came from the meeting they had, and that is that manager refused to allow unpaid or holidays to be booked (or moved) claiming "thats the way we work", i do know tho there is another employee in the same department that has had a holiday approved for one such day, so basically 1 rule for 1 but a different rule for this colleague
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: madness on 15-11-19, 01:32PM
Given the choice EVERYONE would ask for the 23rd 24th off.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 15-11-19, 02:55PM
Of course they likely would but a manager should not claim its a blanket rule and then give someone else it anyway
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: lackofinterest on 15-11-19, 05:36PM
Our manager has TOLD us what our personal day Is. Regarding Xmas Eve,I can't come in at 4pm. I can't expect my kids to be put to bed at 3pm.
Your personal day is your choice tell them go fornicate them selves ..
exactly. YOU choose your personal day any day of the year! see a rep!
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: lucgeo on 15-11-19, 05:44PM
Of course they likely would but a manager should not claim its a blanket rule and then give someone else it anyway

Was the person awarded the time off, after your friend's request or before?? If before, then the dept /store will have a lower % allocation over the Christmas period for holidays. If after, then grievance. Was the blanket ban announced before the person was awarded time off or after?? Although a blanket ban shouldn't be, it could be resulting as people off on holiday, so nobody else can book?? Again if after, grievance.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 15-11-19, 08:02PM
I'm not sure if other member got it approved before my friend asked however its definite that the manager said no one gets off in December, did the same last year but had to renege on it for 1 person as someone else who was given responsibility at the time for doing the Xmas hours had already signed it in the managers absence. So this "ban" was announced last year.

So yeah me thinks a grievance to store manager is appropriate.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: dfl on 17-11-19, 09:17AM
Sounds to me like they have been told no overtime and are trying to cover shifts. If the shop is shut and your shift falls in the time its shut policy was IIRC that you could simply take it unpaid use a holiday day or change your shift it was up to you.

Put in a grievance.
have you any idea which policy its in ?

Thanks.
Title: Re: XMAS eve/new years eve Hours
Post by: Cleaner1 on 17-11-19, 09:13PM
Eve hours  ;D

Where are the hours anytime. 

Day and night the Team and Lead managers do F all.

What are you meant to do with managers who want all jobs done in an hour then take you off them to do pre-sort or another team fill.